4 ms·

Don't elect bad politicians, that is the sum total of the defence available. Laws don't matter if the people in charge don't respect them, so better keep track

Don't elect bad politicians, that is the sum total of the defence available. Laws don't matter if the people in charge don't respect them, so better keep track of who you elect.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Don't elect bad politicians Systems which rely on benevolent leaders fail. The solution is systems of checks and balances.
- shusson 7y ago
  and a common set of ethics and morals. Systems can be manipulated and changed.
- tremon 7y ago
  Bad politicians will attempt to unbalance the checks on them.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  I read an interesting passage lately in Murray Rothbard's _Anatomy of the State_, where he makes a convincing argument that every check, every balance, is immediately repurposed by the State as a means of legitimizing its tyrannical overreach. For example, in the US, the Supreme Court is often seen as the arbiter of constitutionality. If the legislature or the executive can get the Supreme Court, then, to give its approval to a limited, innocuous-seeming version of an abuse, it can then point to that as a seal of legitimacy — and the tactic frequently succeeds, mollifying what would otherwise become public outrage. An example is the Supreme Court resistance to, and final acceptance of, FDR's New Deal policies. When the court finally relented and allowed Roosevelt to proceed, it took the wind out of the opposition, which might otherwise have put a stop to it. Instead, similar policies have proceeded without opposition ever since, and finally gained acceptance by both sides of the political establishment. In the end, the only check on abusive government is the people, which must be able to identify tyranny and have a will to oppose it by either voting the bums out, resisting their abuses directly, or forcing them out if necessary.
  - SiempreViernes 7y ago
    Uh, so things that are created for the express purpose of only allowing legitimate descisions are "repurposed" to give legitimacy? Granting legitimacy seems pretty inherent to that whole "only allow the legitimate" business... Overall I don't find much of merit to that argument, as it is appears built from the weird notion that the state is the spawn of the devil and all its acts are made for the enslavement of mankind, slightly ignoring the fact that a state is actually a bunch of people with fairly boring jobs related to different sorts of accounting.
    - JasonFruit 7y ago
      What you're missing in your first paragraph is that legitimacy is being given to what is illegitimate, and when that failure has taken place, it then becomes permanent, because, after all, if the Supreme Court says it's okay, who am I to argue? I'd be less inclined to say, "spawn of the devil… for the enslavement of mankind," than "parasitic beast bent on survival at any cost." (If it were less parasitic, fewer accountants would be needed.) Like a tapeworm, the government parasite doesn't require malice to be harmful.
      - SiempreViernes 7y ago
        A mechanism that allows the obviously illegitimate clearly will have no legitimacy itself, and so can't legitimise anything in particular. I don't see what the fuss is about?
        JasonFruit 7y ago
        Would you use the Dred Scott decision to prove your point? What about Korematsu, Yasui, or Hirabayashi v. United States?
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > is immediately repurposed by the State as a means of legitimizing its tyrannical overreach Bureaucracies and people in power will, by nature, try to increase their power. That doesn't mean everything happens immediately. The purpose of checks is to increase the pool of people who must consent to an expansion of power. By setting up competing pools of power, the system can be made more resilient to a string of bad leaders. Obviously, no system will survive an endless supply of idiots. But systems which rely on competent politicians tend to fail when the first dummy comes up.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  This deeply misunderstands my point and the basics of how society works: if you put bad people in charge of any part of a country, the system will suffer and ultimately break. No contrivance of checks and balances will let you escape from the basic duty of making sure bad people don't get power of something important. A balance is a tool that simplifies a task, nothing more.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > if you put bad people in charge of any part of a country, the system will suffer and ultimately break Defining "bad" in this context is where the advice becomes useless. "Constitutional respect and restraint" is a dog chasing its tail, since the question is punted to the meaning of constitutional respect and restraint. At the end of the day, certain types of people will always be drawn to power. And the people in power will inevitably have certain undesirable traits in common. The solution to this is, in part, testing for tyrannical tendencies in elections. But it's also in having systems in place that impede fast, fundamental decision making of the type that turns democracies into tyrannies.
    - SiempreViernes 7y ago
      Certainly it is not always obvious who shouldn't be let in and who should get a second chance, but such is life. Keeping those not appropriate is out is still the task, even if "appropriate" varies strongly with the precise context. And without a deep discussion on what precisely is appropriate for all the contexts the state operates in, insistence on bureaucracy is merely (intended or not) a codification of conservatism.
      - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
        > insistence on bureaucracy is merely (intended or not) a codification of conservatism That's actually the point. You get a group of people together to agree on who are the good people. You put them in place. You then install mechanisms to ensure that original view of "good" propagates, with changes being heavily guarded until a consensus similar to the original one re-appears. Governing isn't about good and bad. It's about amongst whom consensus must be formed to produce action. Expanding the pool of necessary votes is what checks and balances accomplish.
germinalphrase 7y ago
An increasingly challenged option as many of our current politicians actively support anti-democratic methods of voter suppression and disenfranchisement.

Don't elect bad politicians, that is the sum total of the defence available. Laws don't matter if the people in charge don't respect them, so better keep track of who you elect.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Don't elect bad politicians Systems which rely on benevolent leaders fail. The solution is systems of checks and balances.

shusson 7y ago
and a common set of ethics and morals. Systems can be manipulated and changed.
tremon 7y ago
Bad politicians will attempt to unbalance the checks on them.
JasonFruit 7y ago
I read an interesting passage lately in Murray Rothbard's _Anatomy of the State_, where he makes a convincing argument that every check, every balance, is immediately repurposed by the State as a means of legitimizing its tyrannical overreach. For example, in the US, the Supreme Court is often seen as the arbiter of constitutionality. If the legislature or the executive can get the Supreme Court, then, to give its approval to a limited, innocuous-seeming version of an abuse, it can then point to that as a seal of legitimacy — and the tactic frequently succeeds, mollifying what would otherwise become public outrage. An example is the Supreme Court resistance to, and final acceptance of, FDR's New Deal policies. When the court finally relented and allowed Roosevelt to proceed, it took the wind out of the opposition, which might otherwise have put a stop to it. Instead, similar policies have proceeded without opposition ever since, and finally gained acceptance by both sides of the political establishment. In the end, the only check on abusive government is the people, which must be able to identify tyranny and have a will to oppose it by either voting the bums out, resisting their abuses directly, or forcing them out if necessary.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  Uh, so things that are created for the express purpose of only allowing legitimate descisions are "repurposed" to give legitimacy? Granting legitimacy seems pretty inherent to that whole "only allow the legitimate" business... Overall I don't find much of merit to that argument, as it is appears built from the weird notion that the state is the spawn of the devil and all its acts are made for the enslavement of mankind, slightly ignoring the fact that a state is actually a bunch of people with fairly boring jobs related to different sorts of accounting.
  - JasonFruit 7y ago
    What you're missing in your first paragraph is that legitimacy is being given to what is illegitimate, and when that failure has taken place, it then becomes permanent, because, after all, if the Supreme Court says it's okay, who am I to argue? I'd be less inclined to say, "spawn of the devil… for the enslavement of mankind," than "parasitic beast bent on survival at any cost." (If it were less parasitic, fewer accountants would be needed.) Like a tapeworm, the government parasite doesn't require malice to be harmful.
    - SiempreViernes 7y ago
      A mechanism that allows the obviously illegitimate clearly will have no legitimacy itself, and so can't legitimise anything in particular. I don't see what the fuss is about?
      - JasonFruit 7y ago
        Would you use the Dred Scott decision to prove your point? What about Korematsu, Yasui, or Hirabayashi v. United States?
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > is immediately repurposed by the State as a means of legitimizing its tyrannical overreach Bureaucracies and people in power will, by nature, try to increase their power. That doesn't mean everything happens immediately. The purpose of checks is to increase the pool of people who must consent to an expansion of power. By setting up competing pools of power, the system can be made more resilient to a string of bad leaders. Obviously, no system will survive an endless supply of idiots. But systems which rely on competent politicians tend to fail when the first dummy comes up.
SiempreViernes 7y ago
This deeply misunderstands my point and the basics of how society works: if you put bad people in charge of any part of a country, the system will suffer and ultimately break. No contrivance of checks and balances will let you escape from the basic duty of making sure bad people don't get power of something important. A balance is a tool that simplifies a task, nothing more.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > if you put bad people in charge of any part of a country, the system will suffer and ultimately break Defining "bad" in this context is where the advice becomes useless. "Constitutional respect and restraint" is a dog chasing its tail, since the question is punted to the meaning of constitutional respect and restraint. At the end of the day, certain types of people will always be drawn to power. And the people in power will inevitably have certain undesirable traits in common. The solution to this is, in part, testing for tyrannical tendencies in elections. But it's also in having systems in place that impede fast, fundamental decision making of the type that turns democracies into tyrannies.
  - SiempreViernes 7y ago
    Certainly it is not always obvious who shouldn't be let in and who should get a second chance, but such is life. Keeping those not appropriate is out is still the task, even if "appropriate" varies strongly with the precise context. And without a deep discussion on what precisely is appropriate for all the contexts the state operates in, insistence on bureaucracy is merely (intended or not) a codification of conservatism.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > insistence on bureaucracy is merely (intended or not) a codification of conservatism That's actually the point. You get a group of people together to agree on who are the good people. You put them in place. You then install mechanisms to ensure that original view of "good" propagates, with changes being heavily guarded until a consensus similar to the original one re-appears. Governing isn't about good and bad. It's about amongst whom consensus must be formed to produce action. Expanding the pool of necessary votes is what checks and balances accomplish.

germinalphrase 7y ago

An increasingly challenged option as many of our current politicians actively support anti-democratic methods of voter suppression and disenfranchisement.