6 ms·

What you're interpreting as "clean feeling" is likely stripping your skin of its protective oils. That's why we (doctors) don't recommend soaps as a general rul

by jazoom 7y ago

What you're interpreting as "clean feeling" is likely stripping your skin of its protective oils. That's why we (doctors) don't recommend soaps as a general rule. That oil is there for a reason.

newsbinator 7y ago
What is currently recommended instead of bar soap (e.g. instead of a bar of Dove for sensitive skin)?
- jazoom 7y ago
  I don't know if that Dove bar has soap in it, but there are many non-soap cleansers of varying degrees of harshness. I only know the brands available in Australia.
  - duncanawoods 7y ago
    You are right, no soap. It calls itself a "beauty bar" hah! I use it and it certainly doesn't cause the astringent and drying effect I get from real soap. I tried to find out whether it was actually recommended for the skin and it's an ungoogleable topic infested by a toxic combination of beauty product snake-oil and "chemicals are evil" antivaxish insanity so I'm none the wiser.
    - okcando 7y ago
      Dove beauty bars contain soap. The ingredients list sodium tallowate or sodium palmitate, which are soaps from animal or vegetable fat, respectively.
      - duncanawoods 7y ago
        Thanks, yep. They are not the primary ingredients which is probably why they can't call it a soap bar. Interestingly, the "Palm" in Napalm is also Sodium Palmitate.
      - benj111 7y ago
        But "Dove doesn't dry your skin like soap can" (uk advertising tagline) which would suggest it isn't soap.
        duncanawoods 7y ago
        A theseus ship type issue. As okcando says - it contains fatty acid salts which are what we call soap. However, lots of things contain these without becoming soap e.g. cheese and napalm so... yeah.
        benj111 7y ago
        charred crusty (but still beautiful) woman turns to face the camera "Napalm doesn't dry you skin like soap can"
  - stevejb 7y ago
    I'm in Australia, can you suggest a few brands?
    - jazoom 7y ago
      I use Enya. 1L for $2.99 from Chemist Warehouse. Probably actually has some soapiness in it but claims to be soap-free. Nowhere near as harsh as bar soap. Smells decent. Lathers well. Australian-made. Wife gets QV Wash, which is less harsh and generally recommended as a gentle cleanser. Expensive, though. Also Australian-made. If you have dry skin, atopic dermatitis, etc. this is what you need. Cetaphil is in the same section. About as expensive. Doesn't lather as well. Not sure if Australian-made.
  - geolqued 7y ago
    From the ingredients list on the Amazon product listing it contains a number of soaps derived from coconut, palm and tallow (usually beef fat). Sodium X-ate is a soap made from X.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
amelius 7y ago
Good point, but what does that mean for the war against plastic gel bottles? From the article: > Given the war against plastic, maybe there will be a reaction to all these bottles of handwash. The bar of soap might yet stage a resurgence.
- jazoom 7y ago
  My wife (also a doctor) actually started buying some bars for exactly that reason. Unfortunately they were too harsh. It's an unsolved problem, as far as I know. Once there's enough demand, I'm sure manufacturers will follow the dollars.
  - abainbridge 7y ago
    I "solve" this problem by using soap but in smaller amounts. It doesn't need to form a lather.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    I've been very happy with super-fatted soaps and soaps with added shea butter. My favorite so far has been Dudu Osun.
- kashug 7y ago
  It's not common with refills for those bottles? (more often than not the refills are also in some kind of plastic - so not sure how much plastic it saves though)
  - jdmichal 7y ago
    Volume increases faster than surface area, so yes buying large refill containers will generally be better.
stinos 7y ago
Would doctors recommend using nothing at all, just warm water, for e.g. showering or bathing (not talking washing hands after changing diapers or so)? Or why not? It seems to be hard to find actual studies about the effects. In fact I have yet to find one, might be my search skills are lacking. From anecdotal experiments I don't see much difference and no negative effects. I don't like the smell anyway, my skin nor hair seems to care, in fact seems to produce less oil overall probably because it doesn't have to counter removal anymore, and as far as I and close friends can tell my body still smells the same.
- jazoom 7y ago
  In general people should probably bathe less than they do in Western nations. I'm also not aware of any specific studies. Warm water is generally enough, except perhaps in areas that are prone to odour (armpits, groin, etc.). Bathing is more a social issue than a health issue.
  - fatnoah 7y ago
    I have no comment on the original comment's correlation of cessation of soap usage with lack of body odor, but as someone who rides a crowded subway every day in the summer, I'm not sure I want people to experiment with this.
    - Retra 7y ago
      People are also unreasonably squeamish toward unpleasant smells. Some things just don't smell great, and that's not actually a problem. It's life, move on.
      - ses1984 7y ago
        No I think most people are the right amount of squeamish around unpleasant smells. It's possible to have good hygiene without using products that are overly irritating or with a large environmental impact.
      - 7y ago
buu700 7y ago
How big a problem is this if you re-oil afterwards? I use soap and just apply jojoba oil (and aloe) after showering, which I understand is similar to human oil, but it's unclear to me whether it's truly a good enough 1:1 replacement or if I could be doing some kind of harm longer-term.
- jazoom 7y ago
  I don't know about long term harm but it won't replicate all the effects of natural skin oils. Our oils contain compounds that keep the acidity just right and keep microbes from taking over. We've evolved those oils over a long time.
alexhutcheson 7y ago
Is that recommendation published somewhere? I'd be curious to read the details.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  I don't have any published sources about not using soap but I use Mother Dirt products and my understanding is that nitric oxide ("NO") on the skin has a whole bunch of important functions[1] and a lot of NO on our skin comes from ammonia oxidizing bacteria ("AOB")[2] that colonizes on our skin and eats (metabolizes?) our sweat. In theory, all of our modern hygiene products reduce the AOB (and presumably other "good" bacteria) on our skin and less AOB means less NO. But all of my knowledge in this area came from someone trying to sell me something so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure there's a microbiologist somewhere on HN who could explain the relationship between soap/skin microbiome much better. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15275864 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15275864 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria
  - benj111 7y ago
    "someone trying to sell me something" What were they selling? Not washing doesn't seem to provide many business opportunities that I can think of. Posies?
    - elliekelly 7y ago
      It’s called Mother Dirt[1] they have a line of microbiome friendly personal hygiene products. I only use AO Mist (I think this was the original product) and have been since maybe 2014 or 2015. They’re made in Cambridge, Mass and the original product was developed by (affiliated) bio-tech company AOBiome. I bought the Mist on a whim after chatting with someone at OpenBiome (AFAIK unaffiliated). I figured I’d try using it instead of face wash for a few months as a little experiment to see how my skin felt. Well I have lupus so I sometimes get the “butterfly rash” across my cheeks. Anything from hot water to alcohol to a cold can trigger it. I hadn’t even considered that the mist might help with it but I was shockingly and pleasantly surprised that over time the butterfly rash became much more faint so I just kept using it. It’s entirely possible that it’s the placebo effect but when I get the butterfly rash now it’s imperceptible to anyone who isn’t looking for it. If I were a true scientist I’d stop for a few months and see if if returns with the same intensity but I guess I’m too vain. [1] https://motherdirt.com/ https://motherdirt.com/
mikedilger 7y ago
Yes it does strip the oils, but a proper bar of soap deposits glycerin which acts as a humectant in the same way that those oils do. I've made my own bar soap for many years now and the only dry skin problems I get is the skin on my shins drying out during winter months -- an area that I don't actively wash with soap. Homemade or clasical bar soap contains glycerin naturally. Commercially made bar soap usually has the glycerin stipped out because they can resell it at a much higher price in cosmetics and skin care products.
- jazoom 7y ago
  Some people smoke for 50 years and never get lung cancer. Body oils have compounds in them that do things other than act as a simple emollient. I'm not trying to convince you to change what you're doing. I'm just saying it's not as simple as you're making it out to be.

by jazoom 7y ago

What you're interpreting as "clean feeling" is likely stripping your skin of its protective oils. That's why we (doctors) don't recommend soaps as a general rule. That oil is there for a reason.

newsbinator 7y ago

What is currently recommended instead of bar soap (e.g. instead of a bar of Dove for sensitive skin)?

jazoom 7y ago
I don't know if that Dove bar has soap in it, but there are many non-soap cleansers of varying degrees of harshness. I only know the brands available in Australia.
- duncanawoods 7y ago
  You are right, no soap. It calls itself a "beauty bar" hah! I use it and it certainly doesn't cause the astringent and drying effect I get from real soap. I tried to find out whether it was actually recommended for the skin and it's an ungoogleable topic infested by a toxic combination of beauty product snake-oil and "chemicals are evil" antivaxish insanity so I'm none the wiser.
  - okcando 7y ago
    Dove beauty bars contain soap. The ingredients list sodium tallowate or sodium palmitate, which are soaps from animal or vegetable fat, respectively.
    - duncanawoods 7y ago
      Thanks, yep. They are not the primary ingredients which is probably why they can't call it a soap bar. Interestingly, the "Palm" in Napalm is also Sodium Palmitate.
    - benj111 7y ago
      But "Dove doesn't dry your skin like soap can" (uk advertising tagline) which would suggest it isn't soap.
      - duncanawoods 7y ago
        A theseus ship type issue. As okcando says - it contains fatty acid salts which are what we call soap. However, lots of things contain these without becoming soap e.g. cheese and napalm so... yeah.
        benj111 7y ago
        charred crusty (but still beautiful) woman turns to face the camera "Napalm doesn't dry you skin like soap can"
- stevejb 7y ago
  I'm in Australia, can you suggest a few brands?
  - jazoom 7y ago
    I use Enya. 1L for $2.99 from Chemist Warehouse. Probably actually has some soapiness in it but claims to be soap-free. Nowhere near as harsh as bar soap. Smells decent. Lathers well. Australian-made. Wife gets QV Wash, which is less harsh and generally recommended as a gentle cleanser. Expensive, though. Also Australian-made. If you have dry skin, atopic dermatitis, etc. this is what you need. Cetaphil is in the same section. About as expensive. Doesn't lather as well. Not sure if Australian-made.
- geolqued 7y ago
  From the ingredients list on the Amazon product listing it contains a number of soaps derived from coconut, palm and tallow (usually beef fat). Sodium X-ate is a soap made from X.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

amelius 7y ago

Good point, but what does that mean for the war against plastic gel bottles? From the article: > Given the war against plastic, maybe there will be a reaction to all these bottles of handwash. The bar of soap might yet stage a resurgence.

jazoom 7y ago
My wife (also a doctor) actually started buying some bars for exactly that reason. Unfortunately they were too harsh. It's an unsolved problem, as far as I know. Once there's enough demand, I'm sure manufacturers will follow the dollars.
- abainbridge 7y ago
  I "solve" this problem by using soap but in smaller amounts. It doesn't need to form a lather.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  I've been very happy with super-fatted soaps and soaps with added shea butter. My favorite so far has been Dudu Osun.
kashug 7y ago
It's not common with refills for those bottles? (more often than not the refills are also in some kind of plastic - so not sure how much plastic it saves though)
- jdmichal 7y ago
  Volume increases faster than surface area, so yes buying large refill containers will generally be better.

stinos 7y ago

Would doctors recommend using nothing at all, just warm water, for e.g. showering or bathing (not talking washing hands after changing diapers or so)? Or why not? It seems to be hard to find actual studies about the effects. In fact I have yet to find one, might be my search skills are lacking. From anecdotal experiments I don't see much difference and no negative effects. I don't like the smell anyway, my skin nor hair seems to care, in fact seems to produce less oil overall probably because it doesn't have to counter removal anymore, and as far as I and close friends can tell my body still smells the same.

jazoom 7y ago
In general people should probably bathe less than they do in Western nations. I'm also not aware of any specific studies. Warm water is generally enough, except perhaps in areas that are prone to odour (armpits, groin, etc.). Bathing is more a social issue than a health issue.
- fatnoah 7y ago
  I have no comment on the original comment's correlation of cessation of soap usage with lack of body odor, but as someone who rides a crowded subway every day in the summer, I'm not sure I want people to experiment with this.
  - Retra 7y ago
    People are also unreasonably squeamish toward unpleasant smells. Some things just don't smell great, and that's not actually a problem. It's life, move on.
    - ses1984 7y ago
      No I think most people are the right amount of squeamish around unpleasant smells. It's possible to have good hygiene without using products that are overly irritating or with a large environmental impact.
    - 7y ago

buu700 7y ago

How big a problem is this if you re-oil afterwards? I use soap and just apply jojoba oil (and aloe) after showering, which I understand is similar to human oil, but it's unclear to me whether it's truly a good enough 1:1 replacement or if I could be doing some kind of harm longer-term.

jazoom 7y ago
I don't know about long term harm but it won't replicate all the effects of natural skin oils. Our oils contain compounds that keep the acidity just right and keep microbes from taking over. We've evolved those oils over a long time.

alexhutcheson 7y ago

Is that recommendation published somewhere? I'd be curious to read the details.

elliekelly 7y ago
I don't have any published sources about not using soap but I use Mother Dirt products and my understanding is that nitric oxide ("NO") on the skin has a whole bunch of important functions[1] and a lot of NO on our skin comes from ammonia oxidizing bacteria ("AOB")[2] that colonizes on our skin and eats (metabolizes?) our sweat. In theory, all of our modern hygiene products reduce the AOB (and presumably other "good" bacteria) on our skin and less AOB means less NO. But all of my knowledge in this area came from someone trying to sell me something so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure there's a microbiologist somewhere on HN who could explain the relationship between soap/skin microbiome much better. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15275864 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15275864 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria
- benj111 7y ago
  "someone trying to sell me something" What were they selling? Not washing doesn't seem to provide many business opportunities that I can think of. Posies?
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    It’s called Mother Dirt[1] they have a line of microbiome friendly personal hygiene products. I only use AO Mist (I think this was the original product) and have been since maybe 2014 or 2015. They’re made in Cambridge, Mass and the original product was developed by (affiliated) bio-tech company AOBiome. I bought the Mist on a whim after chatting with someone at OpenBiome (AFAIK unaffiliated). I figured I’d try using it instead of face wash for a few months as a little experiment to see how my skin felt. Well I have lupus so I sometimes get the “butterfly rash” across my cheeks. Anything from hot water to alcohol to a cold can trigger it. I hadn’t even considered that the mist might help with it but I was shockingly and pleasantly surprised that over time the butterfly rash became much more faint so I just kept using it. It’s entirely possible that it’s the placebo effect but when I get the butterfly rash now it’s imperceptible to anyone who isn’t looking for it. If I were a true scientist I’d stop for a few months and see if if returns with the same intensity but I guess I’m too vain. [1] https://motherdirt.com/ https://motherdirt.com/

mikedilger 7y ago

Yes it does strip the oils, but a proper bar of soap deposits glycerin which acts as a humectant in the same way that those oils do. I've made my own bar soap for many years now and the only dry skin problems I get is the skin on my shins drying out during winter months -- an area that I don't actively wash with soap. Homemade or clasical bar soap contains glycerin naturally. Commercially made bar soap usually has the glycerin stipped out because they can resell it at a much higher price in cosmetics and skin care products.

jazoom 7y ago
Some people smoke for 50 years and never get lung cancer. Body oils have compounds in them that do things other than act as a simple emollient. I'm not trying to convince you to change what you're doing. I'm just saying it's not as simple as you're making it out to be.