14 ms·

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions —

by Lucadg 7y ago

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain activity, will be a big opportunity to increase the efficacy of financial crimes monitoring and enforcement" In other words: let us do Libra and we'll help you win the war on cash. The biggest blow on privacy in the world's history, brought to you buy Facebook.

H8crilA 7y ago
Not to defend them, but this is exactly what happens to all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k) for practical reasons, like theft.
- Lucadg 7y ago
  True. This is exactly the problem with non cash transactions. Every single transaction, no matter how small, is recorded forever and shared with several governments and secret services. I never signed up for this. This is why we need cash and why they are fighting it.
  - SuperNinjaCat 7y ago
    Another question on my mind (again, just my random thoughts, not representing others) is: How could this be used to undermine countries economies who are possibly earmarked for regime change by a company with strong ties to the US State Department affect the current geopolitical landscape...especially when some "developing nations" populations literally see Facebook as the Internet?
    - H8crilA 7y ago
      Same as Trump's (and his predecessors) financial blacklists. Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. In simpler words: another US-domiciled lever that can be switched to the off position.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        > Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. Huawei's CFO is currently on "house arrest" in a $10 million dollar estate in one of Vancouver's best neighborhoods, but free to move about the city so long as she's accompanied by a minder. As contrasted with the Canadians that China has kidnapped in retaliation and remain in secret prisons 8 months later with limited consular services. [1] She's under arrest for wire fraud because to be extradited from Canada you have to have committed what would be a crime in Canada, and violating US sanctions is not a crime in Canada. She is not awaiting extradition, the trial hasn't happened yet, and she may well not be extradited if this is in fact primarily case of US extraterritoriality. One of her best arguments, per usual, is Trump's comments on the whole situation. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cfo-is-on-the-move-to-her-bigger-10-million-mansion https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cf...
        H8crilA 7y ago
        So, you basically agree with me.
  - beefield 7y ago
    The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the need for privacy and the ones understanding need for privacy don't understand the need for negative rates and the rest don't care.
    - 2a96eb7d685a49c 7y ago
      > The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations This is a feature not a bug.
    - cesarb 7y ago
      > So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. So what you want is... cash. But cash from a separate currency. This is identical to what we had here in Brazil in the 90s during the Plano Real transition: the cash everyone had was in the Cruzeiro Real currency, but all the prices were denominate in URV (a "virtual" currency, which months later became a real currency called Real). The Cruzeiro Real was suffering from inflation at the time, but the URV was stable, so to buy something with a price of 1 URV you might pay CR$ 864,14 one week and CR$ 1004,68 the next week (source for these values: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor).
      - beefield 7y ago
        Yep, that is one way to do it to have an exchange rate between cash and account currency.
    - tanseydavid 7y ago
      It astonishes me that you refer to Negative Interest Rates as "sensible monetary policy."
  - erfgh 7y ago
    The reason they are fighting it is because cash transactions are mostly transactions which will not be reported for taxes. When Greece implemented capital controls in 2015 the country's tax income skyrocketed because everyone started using debit cards.
- roel_v 7y ago
  "all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k)" Sort of related, in the Netherlands, we will soon (2 years or so) have a ban on cash transaction of more than 3000 euros. Not to one-up, just saying that it's happening. To be fair, I contribute to this by doing pretty much all payments electronically. Just like I contribute to local bookstores disappearing by buying from Amazon, although I claim to like local bookstores.
  - kenny_r 7y ago
    The same €3000 limit for cash transactions has already been implemented in Belgium, France has an even stricter limit of €1000. Starting in January, the ECB will stop the distribution of the €500 bill. We're nearing the death of cash.
    - Heliosmaster 7y ago
      Italy as well, and other countries are following suit / will do.
    - touristtam 7y ago
      Interesting; I believe the creation of the 500 bill was at the request of Germany. This is the second visible 'give in' from Germany after not getting their candidate at the head of the ECB. Makes you wonder what they have traded this for.
  - harperlee 7y ago
    Does that ban apply to to individuals, though, or only companies? In the European countries I know of, it’s the latter.
    - roel_v 7y ago
      From what I understand, all transactions. It's very hard to enforce between individuals, of course.
- rbrtl 7y ago
  Did you read the Guardian articles about UK Gov't sponsored money laundering? An eye-opener to be sure: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-can-help-you-get-away-with-stealing-millions-a-five-step-guide https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-ca...
raverbashing 7y ago
Hey remember how the press has been pushing for total control of money and transactions? Under the guise of fighting money laundry? This is what you get. How do you like the "deprecation of cash" now? Don't worry, the million/billionaires will still put their money on real estate or other places where there are convenient exceptions for it, make no mistake.
gridlockd 7y ago
This is exactly how all cryptocurrencies already are allowed to operate. Any domestic crypto exchange has to do KYC, but also cooperate with the IRS. With most cryptocurrencies, transactions are public and traceable.
- sametmax 7y ago
  You mean exchanges. Exchanges != crypto. Individuals can use btc anonymously. It's public, but only the person you deal with know who owns your wallet.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    Those exchanges are those "on and off ramps" that the Facebook is talking about here. Otherwise, Libra can be used "anonymously" just like Bitcoin. You download a client, you generate an identity and then you can receive/send it. https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#create-alice-s-and-bob-s-account https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#creat... That's why the whole money laundering issue comes up in the first place, because Libra is a cryptocurrency much like many others. Its distinction is really that it's not decentralized (like Ripple), that it's backed by real assets (like Tether - supposedly) and that Facebook and some other big corps are involved. Those are all reasons for crypto-idealists to hate on it and spread FUD, which the Facebook-hating rest of the interest readily gobbles up. In practice, those are all reasons for Libra to actually work as a means of exchange, as opposed to a highly speculative risk asset. Ripple transactions are instant. Tether price is stable, despite its sketchy background. Big corporations can influence points-of-sale.
    - democracy 7y ago
      What we call a "cryptocurrency" must be decentralised otherwise it is a Paypal version X. Ripple is 100% centralised by the way.
      - jki275 7y ago
        I would agree. Ripple is not considered a cryptocurrency by most, as it is simply a centrally validated bank coin.
sametmax 7y ago
Not just privacy. Democracy in general. No cash mean you can't do anything that has not been validated by the state first. It means kids will have less options to foul around without the parents checking it. It means you won't be able to pay in a gay bar anonymously. It means any new (and hence controversial) political concept will have no way to financially grow to acceptance. It means no living off the grid. It means hobo will be even more excluded. It means in case of crisis, the financial system is paralyzed. It means if powerful people wants something bad for you, you can't be on the run. It means easy censorship against unpopular activists or artists. It means no way to test a weird idea off the record to see if it's worth it. It means no escape if the gov raises taxes in an unjust way. It means no workaround for paralyzing bureaucracy. It means no grandpa selling his home grown vegetable at the farmer market on the side. It means everything you do, where you do, at what time and with whom is tracked, permanently recorded, then passed to algo or AI for analysis. No grey area. No margin of error. Just the immovable, inflexible structure of current society imposing itself to everybody.
- baq 7y ago
  in other news, wechat pay has 900M users monthly.
  - blub 7y ago
    In the same news China is an autocratic regime to be feared and avoided, not emulated.
    - aNoob7000 7y ago
      +100000000
    - JetSpiegel 7y ago
      Apparently Zuck disagrees.
  - sametmax 7y ago
    > Not just privacy. Democracy in general. So yeah, China...
sireat 7y ago
Our best hope against cashless remains seniors and immigrants: https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/691334123/swedens-cashless-experiment-is-it-too-much-too-fast?t=1562683280290 https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/691334123/swedens-cashless-ex... Otherwise we end up with cash that only outlaws use: "His total assets were quickly converted to New Yen, a fat sheaf of the old paper currency that circulated endlessly through the closed circuit of the world's black markets like the seashells of the Trobriand islanders. It was difficult to transact legitimate business with cash in the Sprawl; in Japan, it was already illegal."
Lucadg 7y ago
Typo, sorry: brought to you by Facebook
Lucadg 7y ago
I made this video today on the subject. It's an analysis of the Facebook post linked in the parent. https://youtu.be/1BVXc3jUsSU https://youtu.be/1BVXc3jUsSU

by Lucadg 7y ago

H8crilA 7y ago

Not to defend them, but this is exactly what happens to all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k) for practical reasons, like theft.

Lucadg 7y ago
True. This is exactly the problem with non cash transactions. Every single transaction, no matter how small, is recorded forever and shared with several governments and secret services. I never signed up for this. This is why we need cash and why they are fighting it.
- SuperNinjaCat 7y ago
  Another question on my mind (again, just my random thoughts, not representing others) is: How could this be used to undermine countries economies who are possibly earmarked for regime change by a company with strong ties to the US State Department affect the current geopolitical landscape...especially when some "developing nations" populations literally see Facebook as the Internet?
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    Same as Trump's (and his predecessors) financial blacklists. Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. In simpler words: another US-domiciled lever that can be switched to the off position.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      > Huawei CFO is prosecuted and currently in home arrest in Canada awaiting extradition to the US for allegedly bypassing sanctions on Iran. Huawei's CFO is currently on "house arrest" in a $10 million dollar estate in one of Vancouver's best neighborhoods, but free to move about the city so long as she's accompanied by a minder. As contrasted with the Canadians that China has kidnapped in retaliation and remain in secret prisons 8 months later with limited consular services. [1] She's under arrest for wire fraud because to be extradited from Canada you have to have committed what would be a crime in Canada, and violating US sanctions is not a crime in Canada. She is not awaiting extradition, the trial hasn't happened yet, and she may well not be extradited if this is in fact primarily case of US extraterritoriality. One of her best arguments, per usual, is Trump's comments on the whole situation. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cfo-is-on-the-move-to-her-bigger-10-million-mansion https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-08/huawei-cf...
      - H8crilA 7y ago
        So, you basically agree with me.
- beefield 7y ago
  The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the need for privacy and the ones understanding need for privacy don't understand the need for negative rates and the rest don't care.
  - 2a96eb7d685a49c 7y ago
    > The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations This is a feature not a bug.
  - cesarb 7y ago
    > So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. So what you want is... cash. But cash from a separate currency. This is identical to what we had here in Brazil in the 90s during the Plano Real transition: the cash everyone had was in the Cruzeiro Real currency, but all the prices were denominate in URV (a "virtual" currency, which months later became a real currency called Real). The Cruzeiro Real was suffering from inflation at the time, but the URV was stable, so to buy something with a price of 1 URV you might pay CR$ 864,14 one week and CR$ 1004,68 the next week (source for these values: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor).
    - beefield 7y ago
      Yep, that is one way to do it to have an exchange rate between cash and account currency.
  - tanseydavid 7y ago
    It astonishes me that you refer to Negative Interest Rates as "sensible monetary policy."
- erfgh 7y ago
  The reason they are fighting it is because cash transactions are mostly transactions which will not be reported for taxes. When Greece implemented capital controls in 2015 the country's tax income skyrocketed because everyone started using debit cards.
roel_v 7y ago
"all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k)" Sort of related, in the Netherlands, we will soon (2 years or so) have a ban on cash transaction of more than 3000 euros. Not to one-up, just saying that it's happening. To be fair, I contribute to this by doing pretty much all payments electronically. Just like I contribute to local bookstores disappearing by buying from Amazon, although I claim to like local bookstores.
- kenny_r 7y ago
  The same €3000 limit for cash transactions has already been implemented in Belgium, France has an even stricter limit of €1000. Starting in January, the ECB will stop the distribution of the €500 bill. We're nearing the death of cash.
  - Heliosmaster 7y ago
    Italy as well, and other countries are following suit / will do.
  - touristtam 7y ago
    Interesting; I believe the creation of the 500 bill was at the request of Germany. This is the second visible 'give in' from Germany after not getting their candidate at the head of the ECB. Makes you wonder what they have traded this for.
- harperlee 7y ago
  Does that ban apply to to individuals, though, or only companies? In the European countries I know of, it’s the latter.
  - roel_v 7y ago
    From what I understand, all transactions. It's very hard to enforce between individuals, of course.
rbrtl 7y ago
Did you read the Guardian articles about UK Gov't sponsored money laundering? An eye-opener to be sure: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-can-help-you-get-away-with-stealing-millions-a-five-step-guide https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/05/how-britain-ca...

raverbashing 7y ago

Hey remember how the press has been pushing for total control of money and transactions? Under the guise of fighting money laundry? This is what you get. How do you like the "deprecation of cash" now? Don't worry, the million/billionaires will still put their money on real estate or other places where there are convenient exceptions for it, make no mistake.

gridlockd 7y ago

This is exactly how all cryptocurrencies already are allowed to operate. Any domestic crypto exchange has to do KYC, but also cooperate with the IRS. With most cryptocurrencies, transactions are public and traceable.

sametmax 7y ago
You mean exchanges. Exchanges != crypto. Individuals can use btc anonymously. It's public, but only the person you deal with know who owns your wallet.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  Those exchanges are those "on and off ramps" that the Facebook is talking about here. Otherwise, Libra can be used "anonymously" just like Bitcoin. You download a client, you generate an identity and then you can receive/send it. https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#create-alice-s-and-bob-s-account https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#creat... That's why the whole money laundering issue comes up in the first place, because Libra is a cryptocurrency much like many others. Its distinction is really that it's not decentralized (like Ripple), that it's backed by real assets (like Tether - supposedly) and that Facebook and some other big corps are involved. Those are all reasons for crypto-idealists to hate on it and spread FUD, which the Facebook-hating rest of the interest readily gobbles up. In practice, those are all reasons for Libra to actually work as a means of exchange, as opposed to a highly speculative risk asset. Ripple transactions are instant. Tether price is stable, despite its sketchy background. Big corporations can influence points-of-sale.
  - democracy 7y ago
    What we call a "cryptocurrency" must be decentralised otherwise it is a Paypal version X. Ripple is 100% centralised by the way.
    - jki275 7y ago
      I would agree. Ripple is not considered a cryptocurrency by most, as it is simply a centrally validated bank coin.

sametmax 7y ago

Not just privacy. Democracy in general. No cash mean you can't do anything that has not been validated by the state first. It means kids will have less options to foul around without the parents checking it. It means you won't be able to pay in a gay bar anonymously. It means any new (and hence controversial) political concept will have no way to financially grow to acceptance. It means no living off the grid. It means hobo will be even more excluded. It means in case of crisis, the financial system is paralyzed. It means if powerful people wants something bad for you, you can't be on the run. It means easy censorship against unpopular activists or artists. It means no way to test a weird idea off the record to see if it's worth it. It means no escape if the gov raises taxes in an unjust way. It means no workaround for paralyzing bureaucracy. It means no grandpa selling his home grown vegetable at the farmer market on the side. It means everything you do, where you do, at what time and with whom is tracked, permanently recorded, then passed to algo or AI for analysis. No grey area. No margin of error. Just the immovable, inflexible structure of current society imposing itself to everybody.

baq 7y ago
in other news, wechat pay has 900M users monthly.
- blub 7y ago
  In the same news China is an autocratic regime to be feared and avoided, not emulated.
  - aNoob7000 7y ago
    +100000000
  - JetSpiegel 7y ago
    Apparently Zuck disagrees.
- sametmax 7y ago
  > Not just privacy. Democracy in general. So yeah, China...

sireat 7y ago

Our best hope against cashless remains seniors and immigrants: https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/691334123/swedens-cashless-experiment-is-it-too-much-too-fast?t=1562683280290 https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/691334123/swedens-cashless-ex... Otherwise we end up with cash that only outlaws use: "His total assets were quickly converted to New Yen, a fat sheaf of the old paper currency that circulated endlessly through the closed circuit of the world's black markets like the seashells of the Trobriand islanders. It was difficult to transact legitimate business with cash in the Sprawl; in Japan, it was already illegal."

Lucadg 7y ago

Typo, sorry: brought to you by Facebook

Lucadg 7y ago

I made this video today on the subject. It's an analysis of the Facebook post linked in the parent. https://youtu.be/1BVXc3jUsSU https://youtu.be/1BVXc3jUsSU