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I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance. Only vendors, not customers, see those fees directly. Even if the customers did see them, they aren't big enough to sway the inertia of the way things are. In the real world, the vast majority cares very little about things like decentralization. They don't care about how the banking system works and who controls the flow of money. They want to swipe their card and get what they want. Anything more than that is just an obstacle. At least BTC has the benefits of pseudo-anonymity and speculative appreciation. Libra has neither. Beyond all of this, people like to have control over their money. To feel they have control, people need to have understanding. Paper is easy to understand. Cryptocurrency makes people nervous. Facebook REALLY makes people nervous. Put the two together and it will feel like a big risk to users. I'm an open minded guy, but I don't see it. Someone please enlighten me as to why this won't be Facebook's biggest failure. Why would anyone want to use Libra?

rtpg 7y ago
Most payment apps are locked to a specific country. If Libra becomes "Alipay except cross-country" then a bunch of tourist-y places in (for example) southeast Asia could start using it to get tourist's money without much of a hassle (especially given how many people are already accepting QR code payments from some local app) Similarly, cross-border payments in general are a huge PITA and affect enough people that stuff like Transferwise exists. If Libra can help assuage that there's a nice market there. It might not be a resounding success but it could be enough to sustain an ecosystem.
xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
> Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? I don't intend to speak to various other merits (or the lack thereof) of Libra, but to this: yes? Of course! Transaction fees are huge. If you are operating in a razor-margin business, which more and more businesses are these days, then it adds up. FasTrak, the Bay Area toll processor, charges your card when you drop below a certain balance, and also charges you what they think your average monthly rate will be. Why? To avoid excessive transaction fees on every toll eating into their coffers. If the only way to buy something is Libra, or if merchants prefer Libra, then folks will be using Libra. Just look at how much market share PayPal has conquered, and they're arguable garbage. If you can substantially beat PayPal, you win.
- provolone 7y ago
  There's already a feeless, decentralized cryptocurrency which settles transactions in less than a second. https://nano.org https://nano.org Libra's selling point will be FB's onboarding of users. It would not be unreasonable to expect dark patters there.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TomMckenny 7y ago
>Why would anyone want to use Libra? Money laundering. You'd no longer need to buy a condo in New York to get your rubles into dollars.
- lightgreen 7y ago
  I don’t understand, how buying a condo in New York helps you converting rubles into dollars.
  - TomMckenny 7y ago
    https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-money-heres-how-it-works/ https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-m... Of course that only describes one "hypothetical" case but the mechanism is the same everywhere and for all pass through commodities. This reference in context has the virtue of being slightly humorous IMO.
    - lightgreen 7y ago
      The article seems not to mention currency conversion. So I’m sorry I still don’t understand how buying a condo helps converting rubles to dollars. I see how buying a condo helps to launder corrupt Russian money, but it is unrelated to the currency, it works the same regardless of what the currency is, dollars or libra. I don’t think Facebook (or whichever libra provider is) would allow users sending a million dollar worth of libra to another wallet without any explanations just using a phone app.
      - ALittleLight 7y ago
        I haven't read the article, just imagining how money laundering works, I assume you find a not too scrupulous guy with a nice apartment who needs cash. You give him some dirty money in exchange for the deed. You then take out a loan using your new place as collateral.
      - TomMckenny 7y ago
lightgreen 7y ago
> Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Extra step can be very simple: your libra wallet can be auto topped up from credit card. > Only vendors, not customers, see those fees directly. A lot of small shops around the world (like one next to my home) do not accept Amex because of higher Amex fees. And require cash if total cost is less then several bucks. Maybe these shops will eventually stop accepting Visa and MasterCard and/or allow libra on even smallest transactions. > Facebook REALLY makes people nervous. Are you talking about common people or people who visit HN frequently? I doubt common people really care about their data shared with advertisers. Even I don’t really care. And again, Facebook will be not the only provider of libra. > Why would anyone want to use Libra? To be able to send money to your parents living abroad. To pay on vacation and don’t worry about conversion rates. To be able to send small debts to your friends easily. And so on.
the_watcher 7y ago
When vendors see transaction fees, they pass them on to consumers. Sometimes it's in the form of "$X minimum for credit card transaction", other times it's passing the costs though silently, other times it's not accepting cards at all. In the developing worlds, what we consider trivial fees for a vendor to accept are anything but.
spaced-out 7y ago
There are millions of people around the world that are unbanked. Especially in 3rd world countries, they get on the internet by buying the cheapest possible smartphone and data with cash. I was just in the Philippines, and I saw places selling access to only Facebook and WhatsApp, in increments of 30MB of data, for cash. The problem for Facebook is that these people can't buy anything online, because they don't have a bank account. If Libra launches successfully and remains stable, those same places selling X MB of data for cash, could easily start selling Libra too. That's what so many people here are missing. Facebook isn't targeting this at people who have credit cards, Paypal accounts, and know what Bitcoin is, they're targeting the day laborer in a rural, 3rd world country, who might be enticed to part with some of their spending money for some Chinese plastic trinket that they never could have bought before, because none of the few stores in a 100 mile radius stock stuff like that.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jankotek 7y ago
  I am not sure about Philippines, but most African countries have better mobile banking than US.
  - adventured 7y ago
    That's not true. These days even the smallest US banks tend to have mobile apps or normal mobile banking options. All the major banks without exception do. That has been true for years at this point. Deposits, moving money in various ways, checking balances or statements, bill pay, customer service, etc etc. What exactly is missing that is important that American banking desperately lacks? The larger banks are borderline obnoxious with the options ('features') they try push on you, for what their mobile banking offers now. The only thing I can think of, is easy & instant account funds transfer from one person's bank account to another person's bank account (which is a structural flaw in the US system, and which PayPal & Co. fill).
    - 7y ago
TACIXAT 7y ago
Reasons I'm interested, stability and transaction fees. You don't want to pay someone in a deflationary currency, as their salary will always increase. A stable coin solves this in allowing people to actually use it. The lower fees enable micro transactions which is something that I believe the internet needs in order to move away from ads. I'd happily pay a fraction of a cent per page view, there is no good way to do that right now.
anonytrary 7y ago
> They don't care about how the banking system works and who controls the flow of money That's because the person controlling the flow of money hasn't taken enough away from them. History has plenty of examples where a centralized controller went "too far", causing a mass exodus. This is very hyperbolized, but consumerism and society today is truly reminiscent of a rat inside a cage with infinite sugar water, cocaine, and a steady supply of new mates. --- As for Libra, what is Facebooks plan? The only way I can see them winding up on top is if they make the "next Bitcoin" where they own like ~10% of the supply, kinda like Satoshi. I don't see Libra working if it's centralized.
moksly 7y ago
We have an app called mobile pay in Denmark, which I guess is similar to Apple Pay in that you link a credit card and it lets you send money to friends or pay for stuff. It’s owned by our banks and it works most places a credit card wouldn’t, like in small stores that can’t really afford to have a credit card terminal. That’s it’s main uses, sending money to friends or buying things. Only they also have an API for the web, so you can now pay for things you buy in more and more online stores. I use it a lot. It’s never been easier to collect expenses from board game nights, and when I recently bought the first Harry Potter book (in Danish for my daughter) I didn’t have to enter my credit card information. I think that’s what Libre will be, only global. I don’t like Facebook, but if they actually succeed at this, they’ll become the easiest way to pay for things on a global scale.
- mrweasel 7y ago
  > like in small stores that can’t really afford to have a credit card terminal Remember that most of those small stores are able to do this by breaking the terms of service. Accepting MobilePay is NOT free for business, it's not even cheap. As a customers is pretty easy to spot, if the stores MobilePay number is just their phone number, they're breaking the terms of service, and you should pay cash.
  - mongol 7y ago
    I understand it is a breach of terms of service but as a customer, why should you care? It is not like it is breaching the law. And small businesses live on a much smaller margin than banks.
    - boohoojangles 7y ago
      I somewhat care because it seems like a bit prone to tax fraud. Not sure if it is easy for the Danish tax agencies to spot this kind of transaction and enforce tax collection though.
      - icebraining 7y ago
gilbertmpanga12 7y ago
Libra indeed, is such a huge win for 3rd world countries because cross border payments are way to expensive plus if you're starting a tech startup with hopes of earning from US, or Canada, it's impossible because Stripe, or Paypal are not supported, so they're left out. Libra is great for Startups with global ambitions :)
Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
I wanted to see if there's anything like- 'We are not doing this to see end conversions of our Ads i.e. whether one clicks the Ad and buys the same in the a physical store'. Like Google did(doing?) with Visa/Master card data. Closest related statements I could find in the blog, >while Facebook, Inc. owns and controls Calibra, it won’t see financial data from Calibra >More commerce means ads will be more effective, and advertisers will buy more of them to grow their businesses.
foldingmoney 7y ago
Imagine you live in Zimbabwe in 2008, or Argentina now, where people have no faith in their central banks to responsibly manage their money supply. Then ask yourself what's the value of a portable, anonymous, relatively stable currency that your government can't easily manipulate or confiscate.
seventhtiger 7y ago
Large parts of the world have no access to banking and can never convert from cash to digital currency. How easily can you transfer money to random individual in random developing countries who might offer their digital labor? If they are paid in Libra, and can pay in Libra, they become part of the global economy.
teekert 7y ago
In the Netherlands (or the EU) banking is sort of changing, we have some Fintech companies moving into the space (bunq, revolut, N26). I'm a customer at bunq and they are a breath of fresh air, I can: * Have 25 separated accounts or savings goals * Share any bank account (or savings goal) with anyone (using bunq) * On the fly couple my passes to any of the accounts * Use NFC on my Android phone to pay * Have a website where people can transfer me money coupled to any account * Make payment request that are (when accepted) in my account in seconds * Make 5 virtual MasterCard to route online payments to different accounts * Choose what they do with my savings to generate interest (I have it set to "invest in green companies") They are mobile first (the app is first class) but they have an API (and an open source desktop client as a result). All this is more expensive than traditional banks (I pay 8 euro a month) but they do not invest in shady things and promise to respect my privacy. I imagine Libra will do the same and more (but for the privacy part). It will be more like an ecosystem. Not that I want it. I completely agree with all the sentiments here. I chose bunq because they have the same ideology as I do.
- benj111 7y ago
  "On the fly couple my passes to any of the accounts" I don't understand what you mean by this?
  - dirktheman 7y ago
    Shoddy translation from Dutch, but he probably means that you can link any of your Bunq bank accounts to any of the Bunq banking cards you have.
    - benj111 7y ago
      Interesting thanks. So presumably you link to your beer money account on a night out, expenses account on a work trip, etc, etc, but its all on one physical card.
      - teekert 7y ago
wickoff 7y ago
Check out FX charts for Russian Ruble, Argentinian Peso, Turkish Lyra or even the British Pound. Then ask yourself which of these countries have financial institutions that allow their clients to seamlessly transact in more stable currencies like US dollar or Euro and you have your answer.
- gerikson 7y ago
  These countries can simply ask Facebook/Calibra to not offer their wallet, or to require FB to disable the wallet functionality. Or they can ban Facebook.
  - wickoff 7y ago
    Have you read the linked article? The protocol is open, anybody can build a wallet and transact p2p without KYC with a pseudonymous account. If they get the initial market penetration through WhatsApp/Facebook then it'll be as difficult to ban as Bitcoin. Facebook alone wouldn't have the means to stop those transactions even if they wanted to, this is not PayPal. Considering that most of those have countries have trouble enforcing the most basic tax laws, I'd like to see them try banning digital money that can be transferred over encrypted channels.
    - gerikson 7y ago
      > The protocol is open, anybody can build a wallet and transact p2p without KYC with a pseudonymous account. The protocol may be open, but the permissioning participants are (as of writing) large multinational corporations. If a country tells them that they have credible reasons to believe Libra is being used for money laundering, tax evasion, or gasp funding terrorism, they will be more than happy to close those channels down. From the article, we also have this quote (h/t 'Lucadg) > At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain activity, will be a big opportunity to increase the efficacy of financial crimes monitoring and enforcement.
marc3842h 7y ago
I like to argue that Libra has the potential to become a widespread "mainstream"-like Cryptocurrency. Mainstream is the important factor here. Sending money internationally takes several days currently and comes with high fees. If Facebook implements Libra into their platforms such as Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Instagram etc. this brings less familiar people in contact with Cryptocurrency. People might start to use it because of way faster international money transfers and (most likely) less fees. I know I will because of that reason.
jillesvangurp 7y ago
Very easy: convenience, security, and cost. You are right that consumers will care little about the cost aspect, because it is largely hidden from them (even though they pay for it indirectly) but they do care about convenience and security. Online payments are actually not really that convenient. That's why Amazon is so popular because they sort of shield you from having to setup payments with each of the merchants they proxy for you. This convenience comes at a price; Amazon is not a charity and highly profitable. Copying credit card numbers all over the place is tedious and risky and people are kind of nervous about it for valid reasons. Swiping cards like a caveman is already a thing of the past and also not that safe. There's a huge amount of friction around payments for both users and merchants both online and offline. Even cash has a cost for merchants. Contact-less payments with cards or phones are rapidly replacing cash payments (more convenient). But of course online you basically still get to copy credit card details around or deal with middle men like paypal or one of the many direct debit systems in many countries. BTC is nice as a gold alternative and similarly tedious to transact with. It's useless for payments as transactions are extremely slow and rate limited to a ridiculous ~5 transactions per second globally. Price volatility means that it is hard to price things in it because you have to update the prices continuously. Ethereum is useless for the same reasons (in its current form). Libra will require a bit of selling and educating obviously but actually comes with all the tools needed to make that easy. E.g. micro payments and tipping are very easy to implement on it and you could use that to incentivize users with e.g. bonuses, tiny refunds/rebates, etc. Integrating payments into chat removes a lot of friction for the user. And once there are enough merchants adopting this that incentivize users to use this, adoption could be quite rapid. Having low transaction fees will make this very interesting for merchants.
johnmarcus 7y ago
that's a valid vue from the top of the dollar pyramid, but if your much lower and your local "dollar" doesn't have kind of sway in the world, than this starts making more sense. Look at Venezuela - if the citizens opted in to buy a stable coin (which they can easily do, unlike purchasing physical US dollars, which they can not easily do) than a currency like Libra makes a lot more sense. everyone seems to think crypto is for the first world, it's not, it's for the third worlds. will it empower the citizens like they claim? i don't know, but they definitely have a more valid use case.

rtpg 7y ago

Most payment apps are locked to a specific country. If Libra becomes "Alipay except cross-country" then a bunch of tourist-y places in (for example) southeast Asia could start using it to get tourist's money without much of a hassle (especially given how many people are already accepting QR code payments from some local app) Similarly, cross-border payments in general are a huge PITA and affect enough people that stuff like Transferwise exists. If Libra can help assuage that there's a nice market there. It might not be a resounding success but it could be enough to sustain an ecosystem.

xyzzy_plugh 7y ago

> Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? I don't intend to speak to various other merits (or the lack thereof) of Libra, but to this: yes? Of course! Transaction fees are huge. If you are operating in a razor-margin business, which more and more businesses are these days, then it adds up. FasTrak, the Bay Area toll processor, charges your card when you drop below a certain balance, and also charges you what they think your average monthly rate will be. Why? To avoid excessive transaction fees on every toll eating into their coffers. If the only way to buy something is Libra, or if merchants prefer Libra, then folks will be using Libra. Just look at how much market share PayPal has conquered, and they're arguable garbage. If you can substantially beat PayPal, you win.

provolone 7y ago
There's already a feeless, decentralized cryptocurrency which settles transactions in less than a second. https://nano.org https://nano.org Libra's selling point will be FB's onboarding of users. It would not be unreasonable to expect dark patters there.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

TomMckenny 7y ago

>Why would anyone want to use Libra? Money laundering. You'd no longer need to buy a condo in New York to get your rubles into dollars.

lightgreen 7y ago
I don’t understand, how buying a condo in New York helps you converting rubles into dollars.
- TomMckenny 7y ago
  https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-money-heres-how-it-works/ https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-m... Of course that only describes one "hypothetical" case but the mechanism is the same everywhere and for all pass through commodities. This reference in context has the virtue of being slightly humorous IMO.
  - lightgreen 7y ago
    The article seems not to mention currency conversion. So I’m sorry I still don’t understand how buying a condo helps converting rubles to dollars. I see how buying a condo helps to launder corrupt Russian money, but it is unrelated to the currency, it works the same regardless of what the currency is, dollars or libra. I don’t think Facebook (or whichever libra provider is) would allow users sending a million dollar worth of libra to another wallet without any explanations just using a phone app.
    - ALittleLight 7y ago
      I haven't read the article, just imagining how money laundering works, I assume you find a not too scrupulous guy with a nice apartment who needs cash. You give him some dirty money in exchange for the deed. You then take out a loan using your new place as collateral.
    - TomMckenny 7y ago

lightgreen 7y ago

> Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Extra step can be very simple: your libra wallet can be auto topped up from credit card. > Only vendors, not customers, see those fees directly. A lot of small shops around the world (like one next to my home) do not accept Amex because of higher Amex fees. And require cash if total cost is less then several bucks. Maybe these shops will eventually stop accepting Visa and MasterCard and/or allow libra on even smallest transactions. > Facebook REALLY makes people nervous. Are you talking about common people or people who visit HN frequently? I doubt common people really care about their data shared with advertisers. Even I don’t really care. And again, Facebook will be not the only provider of libra. > Why would anyone want to use Libra? To be able to send money to your parents living abroad. To pay on vacation and don’t worry about conversion rates. To be able to send small debts to your friends easily. And so on.

the_watcher 7y ago

When vendors see transaction fees, they pass them on to consumers. Sometimes it's in the form of "$X minimum for credit card transaction", other times it's passing the costs though silently, other times it's not accepting cards at all. In the developing worlds, what we consider trivial fees for a vendor to accept are anything but.

spaced-out 7y ago

There are millions of people around the world that are unbanked. Especially in 3rd world countries, they get on the internet by buying the cheapest possible smartphone and data with cash. I was just in the Philippines, and I saw places selling access to only Facebook and WhatsApp, in increments of 30MB of data, for cash. The problem for Facebook is that these people can't buy anything online, because they don't have a bank account. If Libra launches successfully and remains stable, those same places selling X MB of data for cash, could easily start selling Libra too. That's what so many people here are missing. Facebook isn't targeting this at people who have credit cards, Paypal accounts, and know what Bitcoin is, they're targeting the day laborer in a rural, 3rd world country, who might be enticed to part with some of their spending money for some Chinese plastic trinket that they never could have bought before, because none of the few stores in a 100 mile radius stock stuff like that.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jankotek 7y ago
I am not sure about Philippines, but most African countries have better mobile banking than US.
- adventured 7y ago
  That's not true. These days even the smallest US banks tend to have mobile apps or normal mobile banking options. All the major banks without exception do. That has been true for years at this point. Deposits, moving money in various ways, checking balances or statements, bill pay, customer service, etc etc. What exactly is missing that is important that American banking desperately lacks? The larger banks are borderline obnoxious with the options ('features') they try push on you, for what their mobile banking offers now. The only thing I can think of, is easy & instant account funds transfer from one person's bank account to another person's bank account (which is a structural flaw in the US system, and which PayPal & Co. fill).
  - 7y ago

TACIXAT 7y ago

Reasons I'm interested, stability and transaction fees. You don't want to pay someone in a deflationary currency, as their salary will always increase. A stable coin solves this in allowing people to actually use it. The lower fees enable micro transactions which is something that I believe the internet needs in order to move away from ads. I'd happily pay a fraction of a cent per page view, there is no good way to do that right now.

anonytrary 7y ago

> They don't care about how the banking system works and who controls the flow of money That's because the person controlling the flow of money hasn't taken enough away from them. History has plenty of examples where a centralized controller went "too far", causing a mass exodus. This is very hyperbolized, but consumerism and society today is truly reminiscent of a rat inside a cage with infinite sugar water, cocaine, and a steady supply of new mates. --- As for Libra, what is Facebooks plan? The only way I can see them winding up on top is if they make the "next Bitcoin" where they own like ~10% of the supply, kinda like Satoshi. I don't see Libra working if it's centralized.

moksly 7y ago

We have an app called mobile pay in Denmark, which I guess is similar to Apple Pay in that you link a credit card and it lets you send money to friends or pay for stuff. It’s owned by our banks and it works most places a credit card wouldn’t, like in small stores that can’t really afford to have a credit card terminal. That’s it’s main uses, sending money to friends or buying things. Only they also have an API for the web, so you can now pay for things you buy in more and more online stores. I use it a lot. It’s never been easier to collect expenses from board game nights, and when I recently bought the first Harry Potter book (in Danish for my daughter) I didn’t have to enter my credit card information. I think that’s what Libre will be, only global. I don’t like Facebook, but if they actually succeed at this, they’ll become the easiest way to pay for things on a global scale.

mrweasel 7y ago
> like in small stores that can’t really afford to have a credit card terminal Remember that most of those small stores are able to do this by breaking the terms of service. Accepting MobilePay is NOT free for business, it's not even cheap. As a customers is pretty easy to spot, if the stores MobilePay number is just their phone number, they're breaking the terms of service, and you should pay cash.
- mongol 7y ago
  I understand it is a breach of terms of service but as a customer, why should you care? It is not like it is breaching the law. And small businesses live on a much smaller margin than banks.
  - boohoojangles 7y ago
    I somewhat care because it seems like a bit prone to tax fraud. Not sure if it is easy for the Danish tax agencies to spot this kind of transaction and enforce tax collection though.
    - icebraining 7y ago

gilbertmpanga12 7y ago

Libra indeed, is such a huge win for 3rd world countries because cross border payments are way to expensive plus if you're starting a tech startup with hopes of earning from US, or Canada, it's impossible because Stripe, or Paypal are not supported, so they're left out. Libra is great for Startups with global ambitions :)

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago

I wanted to see if there's anything like- 'We are not doing this to see end conversions of our Ads i.e. whether one clicks the Ad and buys the same in the a physical store'. Like Google did(doing?) with Visa/Master card data. Closest related statements I could find in the blog, >while Facebook, Inc. owns and controls Calibra, it won’t see financial data from Calibra >More commerce means ads will be more effective, and advertisers will buy more of them to grow their businesses.

foldingmoney 7y ago

Imagine you live in Zimbabwe in 2008, or Argentina now, where people have no faith in their central banks to responsibly manage their money supply. Then ask yourself what's the value of a portable, anonymous, relatively stable currency that your government can't easily manipulate or confiscate.

seventhtiger 7y ago

Large parts of the world have no access to banking and can never convert from cash to digital currency. How easily can you transfer money to random individual in random developing countries who might offer their digital labor? If they are paid in Libra, and can pay in Libra, they become part of the global economy.

teekert 7y ago

In the Netherlands (or the EU) banking is sort of changing, we have some Fintech companies moving into the space (bunq, revolut, N26). I'm a customer at bunq and they are a breath of fresh air, I can: * Have 25 separated accounts or savings goals * Share any bank account (or savings goal) with anyone (using bunq) * On the fly couple my passes to any of the accounts * Use NFC on my Android phone to pay * Have a website where people can transfer me money coupled to any account * Make payment request that are (when accepted) in my account in seconds * Make 5 virtual MasterCard to route online payments to different accounts * Choose what they do with my savings to generate interest (I have it set to "invest in green companies") They are mobile first (the app is first class) but they have an API (and an open source desktop client as a result). All this is more expensive than traditional banks (I pay 8 euro a month) but they do not invest in shady things and promise to respect my privacy. I imagine Libra will do the same and more (but for the privacy part). It will be more like an ecosystem. Not that I want it. I completely agree with all the sentiments here. I chose bunq because they have the same ideology as I do.

benj111 7y ago
"On the fly couple my passes to any of the accounts" I don't understand what you mean by this?
- dirktheman 7y ago
  Shoddy translation from Dutch, but he probably means that you can link any of your Bunq bank accounts to any of the Bunq banking cards you have.
  - benj111 7y ago
    Interesting thanks. So presumably you link to your beer money account on a night out, expenses account on a work trip, etc, etc, but its all on one physical card.
    - teekert 7y ago

wickoff 7y ago

Check out FX charts for Russian Ruble, Argentinian Peso, Turkish Lyra or even the British Pound. Then ask yourself which of these countries have financial institutions that allow their clients to seamlessly transact in more stable currencies like US dollar or Euro and you have your answer.

gerikson 7y ago
These countries can simply ask Facebook/Calibra to not offer their wallet, or to require FB to disable the wallet functionality. Or they can ban Facebook.
- wickoff 7y ago
  Have you read the linked article? The protocol is open, anybody can build a wallet and transact p2p without KYC with a pseudonymous account. If they get the initial market penetration through WhatsApp/Facebook then it'll be as difficult to ban as Bitcoin. Facebook alone wouldn't have the means to stop those transactions even if they wanted to, this is not PayPal. Considering that most of those have countries have trouble enforcing the most basic tax laws, I'd like to see them try banning digital money that can be transferred over encrypted channels.
  - gerikson 7y ago
    > The protocol is open, anybody can build a wallet and transact p2p without KYC with a pseudonymous account. The protocol may be open, but the permissioning participants are (as of writing) large multinational corporations. If a country tells them that they have credible reasons to believe Libra is being used for money laundering, tax evasion, or gasp funding terrorism, they will be more than happy to close those channels down. From the article, we also have this quote (h/t 'Lucadg) > At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain activity, will be a big opportunity to increase the efficacy of financial crimes monitoring and enforcement.

marc3842h 7y ago

I like to argue that Libra has the potential to become a widespread "mainstream"-like Cryptocurrency. Mainstream is the important factor here. Sending money internationally takes several days currently and comes with high fees. If Facebook implements Libra into their platforms such as Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Instagram etc. this brings less familiar people in contact with Cryptocurrency. People might start to use it because of way faster international money transfers and (most likely) less fees. I know I will because of that reason.

jillesvangurp 7y ago

Very easy: convenience, security, and cost. You are right that consumers will care little about the cost aspect, because it is largely hidden from them (even though they pay for it indirectly) but they do care about convenience and security. Online payments are actually not really that convenient. That's why Amazon is so popular because they sort of shield you from having to setup payments with each of the merchants they proxy for you. This convenience comes at a price; Amazon is not a charity and highly profitable. Copying credit card numbers all over the place is tedious and risky and people are kind of nervous about it for valid reasons. Swiping cards like a caveman is already a thing of the past and also not that safe. There's a huge amount of friction around payments for both users and merchants both online and offline. Even cash has a cost for merchants. Contact-less payments with cards or phones are rapidly replacing cash payments (more convenient). But of course online you basically still get to copy credit card details around or deal with middle men like paypal or one of the many direct debit systems in many countries. BTC is nice as a gold alternative and similarly tedious to transact with. It's useless for payments as transactions are extremely slow and rate limited to a ridiculous ~5 transactions per second globally. Price volatility means that it is hard to price things in it because you have to update the prices continuously. Ethereum is useless for the same reasons (in its current form). Libra will require a bit of selling and educating obviously but actually comes with all the tools needed to make that easy. E.g. micro payments and tipping are very easy to implement on it and you could use that to incentivize users with e.g. bonuses, tiny refunds/rebates, etc. Integrating payments into chat removes a lot of friction for the user. And once there are enough merchants adopting this that incentivize users to use this, adoption could be quite rapid. Having low transaction fees will make this very interesting for merchants.

johnmarcus 7y ago

that's a valid vue from the top of the dollar pyramid, but if your much lower and your local "dollar" doesn't have kind of sway in the world, than this starts making more sense. Look at Venezuela - if the citizens opted in to buy a stable coin (which they can easily do, unlike purchasing physical US dollars, which they can not easily do) than a currency like Libra makes a lot more sense. everyone seems to think crypto is for the first world, it's not, it's for the third worlds. will it empower the citizens like they claim? i don't know, but they definitely have a more valid use case.