10 ms·

White empires destroyed millennia of stable political culture in Africa

EGreg 7y ago
It’s fairly amazing ... this post was +4 and then in about a minute became 0 points. So, 5 points cast against it in the span of a minute, about half an hour after it was posted and amassed 4 points. I wonder about the dynamics.
- krapp 7y ago
  You can't criticize the history of "European" culture or the racist ideology of "European" imperialism here without significant backlash. You can't even refer to "Europeans" except through proxy terms, to avoid triggering people.
  - EGreg 7y ago
    My point also was that it implies collusion.
sgt 7y ago
Are you joking? There was no stable political culture in (sub saharan) Africa to speak of - it was primarily tribal and ad-hoc. Colonialism had indeed some serious disadvantages, but it's also primarily the reason why modern cities with infrastructure and major industries exist in Africa.
- MrsPeaches 7y ago
  What period are you talking about? Do these count as “stable political cultures”? [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kongo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kongo [5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_Kingdom
  - EGreg 7y ago
    “Within two years, Shaka had defeated Zwide at the Battle of Mhlatuze River (1820) and broken up the Ndwandwe alliance, some of whom in turn began a murderous campaign against other Nguni tribes and clans, setting in motion what became known as Defecane or Mfecane, a mass-migration of tribes fleeing the remnants of the Ndwandwe fleeing the Zulu. The death toll has never been satisfactorily determined, but the whole region became nearly depopulated. Normal estimates for the death toll during this period range from 1 million to 2 million people. These numbers are however controversial.[3][4][5][6] By 1825, Shaka had conquered an empire covering an area of around 11,500 square miles (30,000 km2).”
- kingkawn 7y ago
  The cities as they exist today may have been augmented and developed in part through European effort, but they are a far cry from what would have been there had the preexisting social orders not been intentionally decimated and if their resources had been spent on their own development rather than Europe’s. Your belief about African societies is a product of after-the-fact justification of the destruction and attempted erasure of the preexisting civilizations.
  - sgt 7y ago
    I'd say it's highly likely there would be not much else than warring tribes and the most basic of technology (such as agriculture and mining). Africa is a really tough place by definition, and for civilizations to thrive you need not just political stability, but also a cultural inclinations that are mostly lacking in sub-saharan society.
    - MrsPeaches 7y ago
      First off, if you are just trolling, well done, this is top shelf stuff. If not could you expand on the following points? What does “tough place by definition” mean? Which “cultural inclinations” are missing in Africa? Are there any other places that you think similarly don’t have them or this only the case in Africa? Probably the most extreme example of the horrors of colonialism is Belgian Congo.[1] No surprise that this is one of the most unstable and violent places in the world. [2] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free... [2] https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/democratic-republic-congo https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/democratic-republic-congo
      - sgt 7y ago
        I am not trolling - and I understand we are approaching an emotional threshold here for some. Lots of factors ranging from hostile climates, tribal/ethnic wars, political issues, language barriers ... the list goes on. In addition to this, you have cultural traits that simply make it harder to build (or rebuild) a civilization. I think many people living on the continent would understand what I mean. Nobody in their right mind denies the horrors of colonialism, but one should not consider all historic events as exclusively negative. Not much of technology was invented over thousands of years (in sub-saharan Africa). Without colonialism (of some sort), it could be very possible that Africa would have remained in the stone age for the next thousand years.
navigatesol 7y ago
>White empires I assume you mean European? Why do you refer to the empire by skin colour, but the territory by name?
- kingkawn 7y ago
  Because that is how those culture’s experienced it, and that is also the terms around which Europeans justified their actions.

It’s fairly amazing ... this post was +4 and then in about a minute became 0 points. So, 5 points cast against it in the span of a minute, about half an hour after it was posted and amassed 4 points. I wonder about the dynamics.

krapp 7y ago
You can't criticize the history of "European" culture or the racist ideology of "European" imperialism here without significant backlash. You can't even refer to "Europeans" except through proxy terms, to avoid triggering people.
- EGreg 7y ago
  My point also was that it implies collusion.

sgt 7y ago

Are you joking? There was no stable political culture in (sub saharan) Africa to speak of - it was primarily tribal and ad-hoc. Colonialism had indeed some serious disadvantages, but it's also primarily the reason why modern cities with infrastructure and major industries exist in Africa.

MrsPeaches 7y ago
What period are you talking about? Do these count as “stable political cultures”? [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kongo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kongo [5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_Kingdom
- EGreg 7y ago
  “Within two years, Shaka had defeated Zwide at the Battle of Mhlatuze River (1820) and broken up the Ndwandwe alliance, some of whom in turn began a murderous campaign against other Nguni tribes and clans, setting in motion what became known as Defecane or Mfecane, a mass-migration of tribes fleeing the remnants of the Ndwandwe fleeing the Zulu. The death toll has never been satisfactorily determined, but the whole region became nearly depopulated. Normal estimates for the death toll during this period range from 1 million to 2 million people. These numbers are however controversial.[3][4][5][6] By 1825, Shaka had conquered an empire covering an area of around 11,500 square miles (30,000 km2).”
kingkawn 7y ago
The cities as they exist today may have been augmented and developed in part through European effort, but they are a far cry from what would have been there had the preexisting social orders not been intentionally decimated and if their resources had been spent on their own development rather than Europe’s. Your belief about African societies is a product of after-the-fact justification of the destruction and attempted erasure of the preexisting civilizations.
- sgt 7y ago
  I'd say it's highly likely there would be not much else than warring tribes and the most basic of technology (such as agriculture and mining). Africa is a really tough place by definition, and for civilizations to thrive you need not just political stability, but also a cultural inclinations that are mostly lacking in sub-saharan society.
  - MrsPeaches 7y ago
    First off, if you are just trolling, well done, this is top shelf stuff. If not could you expand on the following points? What does “tough place by definition” mean? Which “cultural inclinations” are missing in Africa? Are there any other places that you think similarly don’t have them or this only the case in Africa? Probably the most extreme example of the horrors of colonialism is Belgian Congo.[1] No surprise that this is one of the most unstable and violent places in the world. [2] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free... [2] https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/democratic-republic-congo https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/democratic-republic-congo
    - sgt 7y ago
      I am not trolling - and I understand we are approaching an emotional threshold here for some. Lots of factors ranging from hostile climates, tribal/ethnic wars, political issues, language barriers ... the list goes on. In addition to this, you have cultural traits that simply make it harder to build (or rebuild) a civilization. I think many people living on the continent would understand what I mean. Nobody in their right mind denies the horrors of colonialism, but one should not consider all historic events as exclusively negative. Not much of technology was invented over thousands of years (in sub-saharan Africa). Without colonialism (of some sort), it could be very possible that Africa would have remained in the stone age for the next thousand years.

navigatesol 7y ago

>White empires I assume you mean European? Why do you refer to the empire by skin colour, but the territory by name?

kingkawn 7y ago
Because that is how those culture’s experienced it, and that is also the terms around which Europeans justified their actions.