4 ms·

If you're living in a country where you don't speak the mainstream language, living there is more than reason enough by itself to learn it.

whfeiabsvdv 7y ago
And it’s embarrassing how many people live in a country for years but still can’t be bothered to learn the language. Especially in East Asia.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  That really isn’t China. You won’t survive without some mandarin, so you learn a basic level pretty quickly.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
A lot of foreigners working in China get by with only basic daily life mandarin. Mine was better than most, but no where useable for work. Again, don’t learn mandarin just for the money. English is much more important, even in a country like China, at the upper tech echelon.
- Kaveren 7y ago
  It's pretty embarrassing to live in a country for 10 years and not being able to use it for work.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    No, not really. None of my coworkers thought it was weird either. One of my coworkers was in China for 12 years and 5 years in Taiwan before that, and his Chinese wasn’t as good as mine. But he was one of the first to do deep neural network training on GPUs, so he had lots of face to compensate for any loss due to language skills.
    - asljkdnad 7y ago
      Nobody will say it directly, but such people are rarely highly regarded. But no matter how you put it, living in any country for a decade without picking up the local language is embarrassing, if not a tad disrespectful.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        We all pick up the language, but level 1 or 2 Chinese is different from Chinese mastery. China is really different: any foreigner managing a simple 你好 is praised for it, let alone a 大山 who has mastered Chinese tongue twister comedies.
  - sho 7y ago
    You'd be amazed at the bubbles expats can live in, especially high-value personnel like embassy staff, executives or subject matter experts. I've heard of people with english-speaking house staff (who also do all shopping), driver, everyone at the office, personal secretary who organises absolutely everything, doctors, schools - and a 24-hour phone number to dial if there's any difficulties outside that. People can go for years without ever actually having to talk to a local in their own language. Plus, there can be weird dynamics at work. Some people will actually look down on you as having somehow debased yourself for making too much effort to study the local language, both fellow foreigners and the locals themselves. As best as I can understand, they think it comes across as too eager to please, or an attempt to ingratiate, or that you obviously don't love your own culture enough, or that you evidently have too much time and thus can't be all that important... have heard some variation on all of them. Especially in Asia, there's a kind of stereotype of the Big Important Foreigner who has been Appointed to this Developing Country to do Important Things. Suddenly breaking into fluent $LOCALDIALECT kind of shatters that illusion and raises all sorts of questions. Sounds strange, but it's a thing.
    - wawaygfuyre 7y ago
      That attitude is definitely not a Chinese thing though. In China, it’s the reverse. They think foreigners aren’t smart enough to learn Chinese. That’s why they are always amazed when some expat can speak even the most basic phrases. The scary thing is that’s it’s often these “expat bubble” executives that are making decisions. No wonder foreign companies in China get taken to the cleaners.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        That really isn’t always true though. There was a solid glass ceiling for non Chinese speaking managers at the senior level, and well, it was really just Chinese (even 大山 wouldn’t be Chinese enough for promo). A senior Chinese manager in America is much more normalized than a senior western manager in China, (the former is an immigrant and has a green card, the latter is an expat and will go back next year after their assignment is done).
  - indziektor 7y ago
    I haven't reached ten years abroad yet, not China, but for my anecdata, the local language is considered one of the harder ones for native English speakers to learn. To help remember it, I have to frequently put myself into situations where I feel pressure to speak and understand it. I can't just learn it by osmosis. I didn't grow up inundated by it, and I've had to invest considerably to get to where I am today with it. I don't regret it at all, but it's time and energy which might have been better spent learning other things instead. Especially when English is mainly the official language at work, and many people on the street can speak it for business or travel anyway. Career options here are much more limited unless you have a decent command of English. My bigger reason to want to learn it has been for social purposes.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  >> living there is more than reason enough > don’t learn mandarin just for the money Did you reply to the wrong comment?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

whfeiabsvdv 7y ago

And it’s embarrassing how many people live in a country for years but still can’t be bothered to learn the language. Especially in East Asia.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
That really isn’t China. You won’t survive without some mandarin, so you learn a basic level pretty quickly.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

A lot of foreigners working in China get by with only basic daily life mandarin. Mine was better than most, but no where useable for work. Again, don’t learn mandarin just for the money. English is much more important, even in a country like China, at the upper tech echelon.

Kaveren 7y ago
It's pretty embarrassing to live in a country for 10 years and not being able to use it for work.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  No, not really. None of my coworkers thought it was weird either. One of my coworkers was in China for 12 years and 5 years in Taiwan before that, and his Chinese wasn’t as good as mine. But he was one of the first to do deep neural network training on GPUs, so he had lots of face to compensate for any loss due to language skills.
  - asljkdnad 7y ago
    Nobody will say it directly, but such people are rarely highly regarded. But no matter how you put it, living in any country for a decade without picking up the local language is embarrassing, if not a tad disrespectful.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      We all pick up the language, but level 1 or 2 Chinese is different from Chinese mastery. China is really different: any foreigner managing a simple 你好 is praised for it, let alone a 大山 who has mastered Chinese tongue twister comedies.
- sho 7y ago
  You'd be amazed at the bubbles expats can live in, especially high-value personnel like embassy staff, executives or subject matter experts. I've heard of people with english-speaking house staff (who also do all shopping), driver, everyone at the office, personal secretary who organises absolutely everything, doctors, schools - and a 24-hour phone number to dial if there's any difficulties outside that. People can go for years without ever actually having to talk to a local in their own language. Plus, there can be weird dynamics at work. Some people will actually look down on you as having somehow debased yourself for making too much effort to study the local language, both fellow foreigners and the locals themselves. As best as I can understand, they think it comes across as too eager to please, or an attempt to ingratiate, or that you obviously don't love your own culture enough, or that you evidently have too much time and thus can't be all that important... have heard some variation on all of them. Especially in Asia, there's a kind of stereotype of the Big Important Foreigner who has been Appointed to this Developing Country to do Important Things. Suddenly breaking into fluent $LOCALDIALECT kind of shatters that illusion and raises all sorts of questions. Sounds strange, but it's a thing.
  - wawaygfuyre 7y ago
    That attitude is definitely not a Chinese thing though. In China, it’s the reverse. They think foreigners aren’t smart enough to learn Chinese. That’s why they are always amazed when some expat can speak even the most basic phrases. The scary thing is that’s it’s often these “expat bubble” executives that are making decisions. No wonder foreign companies in China get taken to the cleaners.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      That really isn’t always true though. There was a solid glass ceiling for non Chinese speaking managers at the senior level, and well, it was really just Chinese (even 大山 wouldn’t be Chinese enough for promo). A senior Chinese manager in America is much more normalized than a senior western manager in China, (the former is an immigrant and has a green card, the latter is an expat and will go back next year after their assignment is done).
- indziektor 7y ago
  I haven't reached ten years abroad yet, not China, but for my anecdata, the local language is considered one of the harder ones for native English speakers to learn. To help remember it, I have to frequently put myself into situations where I feel pressure to speak and understand it. I can't just learn it by osmosis. I didn't grow up inundated by it, and I've had to invest considerably to get to where I am today with it. I don't regret it at all, but it's time and energy which might have been better spent learning other things instead. Especially when English is mainly the official language at work, and many people on the street can speak it for business or travel anyway. Career options here are much more limited unless you have a decent command of English. My bigger reason to want to learn it has been for social purposes.
erikpukinskis 7y ago
>> living there is more than reason enough > don’t learn mandarin just for the money Did you reply to the wrong comment?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]