5 ms·

In Hong Kong, one protester pulls off his mask and defines a movement

129 points by bkohlmann 7y ago

dosy 7y ago
criminally destroyed legco then fled justice. totally defined the movement that seeks to assist those fleeing justice.
bkohlmann 7y ago
I’ve been thinking about this man all night. He, alone among his peers, took an action with foreseeable and negative personal consequences. Whether spontaneous or planned, he made a choice that may well define the rest of his life, for good or ill. I took the time to reflect on my own weekend, celebrating America’s independence against different totalitarian rule. I spent it with family, safe, free, and relaxed. I couldn’t help but wonder if i would have the fortitude of this man, even basking in the freedoms I now, blithely, take for granted. Base rates for humans show that amidst totalitarian regimes, most choose silence and going with the flow. While i like to imagine otherwise, I am a product of my culture - and self-protective. Yet, this man, on one evening, said “here I am. And this is who I am.” Knowing nothing else about him, he is a hero.
- betenoire 7y ago
  it's hard to know what you'd do until your back is against the wall
- TomMckenny 7y ago
  It is a magnificent thing to see people defend their civil rights. And it is the rational ting too: given the implications of the extradition bill, a few days on the street will seem a tiny price to pay. And indeed, given ever growing intrusion into HK by the main land and ever increasing biometric surveillance technology, once on film, I doubt the surgical masks will provide anonymity for all the decades these folks will live.
  - T-A 7y ago
    > a few days on the street will seem a tiny price to pay From the article: "He could face up to 10 years in prison, or even abduction and secret detention in China, as has happened to others in Hong Kong."
- djvu9 7y ago
  There are reports that he has successfully fled HK. He was literally risking his life standing out and I wish him all the best.
- st1ck 7y ago
  I have some doubts that British colonial rule was anything comparable to Nazi Germany, USSR or even China nowadays.
- yangdehang 7y ago
  A hero or idiot? The protesters are manipulated by someone behind, powerful and evilly smart people. All the protester's actions will not alter the decisions that have been carefully thought by the China gov. I am glad he has not yet formed a family, otherwise more people will suffer by this meaningless movement.
  - thinkingemote 7y ago
    Crikey. This comment is interesting as an example a comment that is "manipulated". Thank you for the great example! It's different from a troll comment as a troll comment will seek to appeal to identities and groups but this one is too harsh in its directness. A troll will sometimes be vague in their intentions. Perhaps this means it's an indication of truthful indoctrination or an indication of unsophisticated organised political marketing. Always nice to see on NH.
git-pull 7y ago
It's hard to draw broad strokes about this. But I really really deeply like HK. One thing about Hong Kong that's a lot to take in is how western-friendly the culture is. I think there was a western news channel playing while I was on the MTR last time. I am guessing some may find the rallies annoying. They may view them as hooligans, but even the cynical still are happy with HK being HK. To understand more about HK system of government, check out the basic law: https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/facts/index.html https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/facts/index.html, https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/index.html https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/index.html. This effectively serves as the constitution of HK. And it's a weird thing: Because it's effectively a client state constitution. heh. They have their own judiciary, they have their own case law, but the people of HK cannot amend their constitution. P.S. I haven't read the latest part of the extradition law they're trying to pass (anyone have it?)
- calyth2018 7y ago
  This is an older version of the bill: https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/brief/b201903291_brf.pdf https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/brief/b201903... Before they have amended it, conceding to concerns and up the minimum requirement for an offence to be extradictable from 3 years to 7 years. SCMP has an infographic comparing the existing process with the proposed one: https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/article/3013512/hong-kong-extradition/index.html https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/arti... > One thing about Hong Kong that's a lot to take in is how western-friendly the culture is. They might be friendly, but often they don't understand it fully. Democracy isn't a silver-bullet that would cure all of Hong Kong's ills. And they're apt to label every change to be an extension of Beijing's reach. For example, the change in school curriculum. No doubt that some of the content in there is objectionable to me. However, the often thrown around accusation is that singing the national anthem amounts to brainwashing. After emigrating in '95, I sang O Canada during the weekly assembly at school. I'm sure the Star-Spangled Banner is sung at American schools. I don't think a lot of them are aware of that. Another example would be the customs procedures for the high-speed train in HK, in which they have harangued over and over. Canadian airports suffer from the exactly the same problem - US CBP operates at any Canadian airport. I did raise my concerns with my MP, and she did have an interesting argument. If a Canadian was to be detained, at least it would be far easier to provide support than if they flew into US, and then get detained at the US airport. Or the case where the HKSAR government moving VJ day to line up with the mainland's VJ day date. Accusations of Beijing trying to erase history immediately flew. Honestly, under the Colonial system, they never taught us anything about that, or about remembrance day (I was there up til Grade 6). In Canada, they have no problems teaching students about it at Grade 6. I didn't even realize the scope of Canadian involvement until I went to the Canadian War Museum. There is far more background context than a single article could put forth. But it's not hard to see HKers cling to the colonial past, when Hong Kong was economically bigger then, and mainlanders would bend over backwards if a visiting Hong Konger waves around HKD. Now the mainland economy and power is much bigger than Hong Kong, and to be fair, their increase meddling is really amping up anxieties. But it's so easy to focus those anxieties, and forget that the Colonial government shares blame for lots of the current issues plaguing daily lives there.
dehrmann 7y ago
I wonder if he'll be this generation's Tank Man. Ironically, the situations couldn't be more different.
- kaycebasques 7y ago
  I can think of lots of scenarios in which the situations are more different. Not sure what you mean by that.
ntdb 7y ago
Googling this man's name (Brian Leung Kai-ping) reveals a number of articles suggesting that he fled to the United States immediately after this event. However, I can't tell whether any of the web sites reporting this news are trustworthy. When I first read these reports I immediately dismissed him and his comments to the LA Times but now I wonder if the story of his flight is propaganda intended to negate his courage.
- fma 7y ago
  The most notable article I guess is from South China Morning Post (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3017530/only-unmasked-protester-hong-kong-legco-takeover-has-fled https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3017530...) and they cite 'a source'. Also in their article, there are clearly many others in the photographs without masks. So I think his impromptu speech is more important than taking off his mask, but lots of articles cite removal of his mask.. Since this organization has no leader, it would benefit the opposition to paint a leader out of thin air and show faults in him.
neonate 7y ago
http://archive.is/99QgE http://archive.is/99QgE
tsjq 7y ago
that one protester is now "too visible to arrest". China will "take care" of him when the dust settles down.
Mikeb85 7y ago
Hong Kong reminds me a lot of Ukraine. They both want to be 'modern', 'western' and 'special', rejecting the 'backwards' ways of their imperial leaders. Unfortunately, their economic success was/is wholly dependant on said leaders, and they're shooting themselves in the foot by trying to break away. No one in the west truly gives a shit about HK or Ukraine. We give them lip-service, but no one will go to war over it. We egg them on to stick it to China/Russia, and they get fucked. The fact is, Hong Kong's entire success is due to the fact it was an entry point to doing business with China. Protesters have jeopardized that arrangement, Hong Kong will never see the same level of economic success (relative to China) again. Much like Ukraine which, without Russia as a partner, is now one of the poorest countries in Europe with a GDP per capita half that of Belarus', and a quarter of Russia's. Hong Kongers want to be special, but they're killing the only thing which allowed them to be successful. After these protests simmer down, the west will forget about them again, having never done anything for them in the first place, and they'll be worse off.
- valesco 7y ago
  There are certainly people who prefer living in a high GDP country in which they can be 'disappeared' one night along with their family, but I didn't expect to see them on HN.
  - camgunz 7y ago
    I don't think that's exactly what op is getting at. Basically they're saying the west will give token support to HK and hang them out to dry later. They're saying the options aren't freedom vs. tyranny, but rather high vs. low GDP police state.
    - Mikeb85 7y ago
      Exactly. Hong Kong's only real choices are to be an exemplary model of the 'two systems one country' model and wait for China to change, or to go against the grain and get crushed. Becoming a 'free', 'western' country is impossible.
- 7y ago
taobility 7y ago
I am wondering what's the consequence if any American destroy the Capitol Building in Washington, will he be shoot before he crush into the building?
spectramax 7y ago
What praise do I give to this oppression (China's influence over HK) where people, even a single person out of many thousands, are terrified of revealing their identity in a protest? It seems unpopular on HN, but there is something that westerners are missing that makes the phrase "Boycott China" sound racist, ignorant and preposterous. Why is it so "wrong" to properly, sternly and unapologetically criticizing China? Even saying things like "I don't support buying Chinese goods" sound insane on HN. WHY!? Why should people praise Chinese economic progress, lifting middle class and giving a middle finger to IP, Shenzhen philosophy of quick business, etc. at the cost of loss of liberty and freedom, and democracy?
- thinkingemote 7y ago
  It's similar to our love hate relationship with advertising. Almost all employed readers work for companies who are at varying degrees dependant on advertising and almost all have adblock enabled. We are compromised and conflicted.
- _cs2017_ 7y ago
  The hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters had no masks. The small group who vandalized the Legislative Council wore masks because they knew they were breaking HK laws. Indeed, they would be arrested and charged for such actions in any country, including colonial HK, UK, or US. While there are plenty of reasons you may dislike the behavior of the Chinese government, I don't think this is one of them. On another note, I'm not sure why you would admire one of the very few violent extremists who embarrassed the otherwise peaceful HK democracy movement. Just because an extremist is willing to risk jail sentence by revealing his face, he becomes a hero?
  - spectramax 7y ago
    Accordingly to this logic, Gandhi was an extremist for breaking British law.
  - chowyuncat 7y ago
    Jail, torture, and death followed by organ extraction.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

129 points by bkohlmann 7y ago

dosy 7y ago

criminally destroyed legco then fled justice. totally defined the movement that seeks to assist those fleeing justice.

I’ve been thinking about this man all night. He, alone among his peers, took an action with foreseeable and negative personal consequences. Whether spontaneous or planned, he made a choice that may well define the rest of his life, for good or ill. I took the time to reflect on my own weekend, celebrating America’s independence against different totalitarian rule. I spent it with family, safe, free, and relaxed. I couldn’t help but wonder if i would have the fortitude of this man, even basking in the freedoms I now, blithely, take for granted. Base rates for humans show that amidst totalitarian regimes, most choose silence and going with the flow. While i like to imagine otherwise, I am a product of my culture - and self-protective. Yet, this man, on one evening, said “here I am. And this is who I am.” Knowing nothing else about him, he is a hero.

betenoire 7y ago
it's hard to know what you'd do until your back is against the wall
TomMckenny 7y ago
It is a magnificent thing to see people defend their civil rights. And it is the rational ting too: given the implications of the extradition bill, a few days on the street will seem a tiny price to pay. And indeed, given ever growing intrusion into HK by the main land and ever increasing biometric surveillance technology, once on film, I doubt the surgical masks will provide anonymity for all the decades these folks will live.
- T-A 7y ago
  > a few days on the street will seem a tiny price to pay From the article: "He could face up to 10 years in prison, or even abduction and secret detention in China, as has happened to others in Hong Kong."
djvu9 7y ago
There are reports that he has successfully fled HK. He was literally risking his life standing out and I wish him all the best.
st1ck 7y ago
I have some doubts that British colonial rule was anything comparable to Nazi Germany, USSR or even China nowadays.
yangdehang 7y ago
A hero or idiot? The protesters are manipulated by someone behind, powerful and evilly smart people. All the protester's actions will not alter the decisions that have been carefully thought by the China gov. I am glad he has not yet formed a family, otherwise more people will suffer by this meaningless movement.
- thinkingemote 7y ago
  Crikey. This comment is interesting as an example a comment that is "manipulated". Thank you for the great example! It's different from a troll comment as a troll comment will seek to appeal to identities and groups but this one is too harsh in its directness. A troll will sometimes be vague in their intentions. Perhaps this means it's an indication of truthful indoctrination or an indication of unsophisticated organised political marketing. Always nice to see on NH.

git-pull 7y ago

It's hard to draw broad strokes about this. But I really really deeply like HK. One thing about Hong Kong that's a lot to take in is how western-friendly the culture is. I think there was a western news channel playing while I was on the MTR last time. I am guessing some may find the rallies annoying. They may view them as hooligans, but even the cynical still are happy with HK being HK. To understand more about HK system of government, check out the basic law: https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/facts/index.html https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/facts/index.html, https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/index.html https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/index.html. This effectively serves as the constitution of HK. And it's a weird thing: Because it's effectively a client state constitution. heh. They have their own judiciary, they have their own case law, but the people of HK cannot amend their constitution. P.S. I haven't read the latest part of the extradition law they're trying to pass (anyone have it?)

calyth2018 7y ago
This is an older version of the bill: https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/brief/b201903291_brf.pdf https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/brief/b201903... Before they have amended it, conceding to concerns and up the minimum requirement for an offence to be extradictable from 3 years to 7 years. SCMP has an infographic comparing the existing process with the proposed one: https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/article/3013512/hong-kong-extradition/index.html https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/arti... > One thing about Hong Kong that's a lot to take in is how western-friendly the culture is. They might be friendly, but often they don't understand it fully. Democracy isn't a silver-bullet that would cure all of Hong Kong's ills. And they're apt to label every change to be an extension of Beijing's reach. For example, the change in school curriculum. No doubt that some of the content in there is objectionable to me. However, the often thrown around accusation is that singing the national anthem amounts to brainwashing. After emigrating in '95, I sang O Canada during the weekly assembly at school. I'm sure the Star-Spangled Banner is sung at American schools. I don't think a lot of them are aware of that. Another example would be the customs procedures for the high-speed train in HK, in which they have harangued over and over. Canadian airports suffer from the exactly the same problem - US CBP operates at any Canadian airport. I did raise my concerns with my MP, and she did have an interesting argument. If a Canadian was to be detained, at least it would be far easier to provide support than if they flew into US, and then get detained at the US airport. Or the case where the HKSAR government moving VJ day to line up with the mainland's VJ day date. Accusations of Beijing trying to erase history immediately flew. Honestly, under the Colonial system, they never taught us anything about that, or about remembrance day (I was there up til Grade 6). In Canada, they have no problems teaching students about it at Grade 6. I didn't even realize the scope of Canadian involvement until I went to the Canadian War Museum. There is far more background context than a single article could put forth. But it's not hard to see HKers cling to the colonial past, when Hong Kong was economically bigger then, and mainlanders would bend over backwards if a visiting Hong Konger waves around HKD. Now the mainland economy and power is much bigger than Hong Kong, and to be fair, their increase meddling is really amping up anxieties. But it's so easy to focus those anxieties, and forget that the Colonial government shares blame for lots of the current issues plaguing daily lives there.

dehrmann 7y ago

I wonder if he'll be this generation's Tank Man. Ironically, the situations couldn't be more different.

kaycebasques 7y ago
I can think of lots of scenarios in which the situations are more different. Not sure what you mean by that.

ntdb 7y ago

Googling this man's name (Brian Leung Kai-ping) reveals a number of articles suggesting that he fled to the United States immediately after this event. However, I can't tell whether any of the web sites reporting this news are trustworthy. When I first read these reports I immediately dismissed him and his comments to the LA Times but now I wonder if the story of his flight is propaganda intended to negate his courage.

fma 7y ago
The most notable article I guess is from South China Morning Post (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3017530/only-unmasked-protester-hong-kong-legco-takeover-has-fled https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3017530...) and they cite 'a source'. Also in their article, there are clearly many others in the photographs without masks. So I think his impromptu speech is more important than taking off his mask, but lots of articles cite removal of his mask.. Since this organization has no leader, it would benefit the opposition to paint a leader out of thin air and show faults in him.

neonate 7y ago

http://archive.is/99QgE http://archive.is/99QgE

tsjq 7y ago

that one protester is now "too visible to arrest". China will "take care" of him when the dust settles down.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Hong Kong reminds me a lot of Ukraine. They both want to be 'modern', 'western' and 'special', rejecting the 'backwards' ways of their imperial leaders. Unfortunately, their economic success was/is wholly dependant on said leaders, and they're shooting themselves in the foot by trying to break away. No one in the west truly gives a shit about HK or Ukraine. We give them lip-service, but no one will go to war over it. We egg them on to stick it to China/Russia, and they get fucked. The fact is, Hong Kong's entire success is due to the fact it was an entry point to doing business with China. Protesters have jeopardized that arrangement, Hong Kong will never see the same level of economic success (relative to China) again. Much like Ukraine which, without Russia as a partner, is now one of the poorest countries in Europe with a GDP per capita half that of Belarus', and a quarter of Russia's. Hong Kongers want to be special, but they're killing the only thing which allowed them to be successful. After these protests simmer down, the west will forget about them again, having never done anything for them in the first place, and they'll be worse off.

valesco 7y ago
There are certainly people who prefer living in a high GDP country in which they can be 'disappeared' one night along with their family, but I didn't expect to see them on HN.
- camgunz 7y ago
  I don't think that's exactly what op is getting at. Basically they're saying the west will give token support to HK and hang them out to dry later. They're saying the options aren't freedom vs. tyranny, but rather high vs. low GDP police state.
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    Exactly. Hong Kong's only real choices are to be an exemplary model of the 'two systems one country' model and wait for China to change, or to go against the grain and get crushed. Becoming a 'free', 'western' country is impossible.
7y ago

taobility 7y ago

I am wondering what's the consequence if any American destroy the Capitol Building in Washington, will he be shoot before he crush into the building?

spectramax 7y ago

What praise do I give to this oppression (China's influence over HK) where people, even a single person out of many thousands, are terrified of revealing their identity in a protest? It seems unpopular on HN, but there is something that westerners are missing that makes the phrase "Boycott China" sound racist, ignorant and preposterous. Why is it so "wrong" to properly, sternly and unapologetically criticizing China? Even saying things like "I don't support buying Chinese goods" sound insane on HN. WHY!? Why should people praise Chinese economic progress, lifting middle class and giving a middle finger to IP, Shenzhen philosophy of quick business, etc. at the cost of loss of liberty and freedom, and democracy?

thinkingemote 7y ago
It's similar to our love hate relationship with advertising. Almost all employed readers work for companies who are at varying degrees dependant on advertising and almost all have adblock enabled. We are compromised and conflicted.
_cs2017_ 7y ago
The hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters had no masks. The small group who vandalized the Legislative Council wore masks because they knew they were breaking HK laws. Indeed, they would be arrested and charged for such actions in any country, including colonial HK, UK, or US. While there are plenty of reasons you may dislike the behavior of the Chinese government, I don't think this is one of them. On another note, I'm not sure why you would admire one of the very few violent extremists who embarrassed the otherwise peaceful HK democracy movement. Just because an extremist is willing to risk jail sentence by revealing his face, he becomes a hero?
- spectramax 7y ago
  Accordingly to this logic, Gandhi was an extremist for breaking British law.
- chowyuncat 7y ago
  Jail, torture, and death followed by organ extraction.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]