5 ms·

I love how it's 2019 and installing Debian still requires a PhD in forensic psychology to find the download link.

by ebg13 7y ago

infinity0 7y ago
You're still thinking like a passive consumer, you won't get very far changing the world like that.
29athrowaway 7y ago
Debian network install (amd64) is a safe choice.
- ebg13 7y ago
  How many clicks does it take to find that? Scratch that. How do you find that without knowing exactly where it is already? What do you click on? Where is it on the page? What and how much do you have to ignore before you finally get to the part at every stage that's actually relevant to the breadcrumb trail? [edit] The "click Get Debian" responses are absolutely killing me. OH YES AND THEN WHAT? How many paragraphs of jargon do you have to casually slide past? How many links do you have to _not_ click? How do you know which links to actually click vs all the ones that you're supposed to not click? The definition of "free"? The "installation manual"? Will the small image be incomplete? What's the difference between a small CD and a tiny CD? What's the difference between a USB stick and a "flexible" USB stick? Can't I put a DVD on a USB stick? I swear this kind of UX aspect blindness is why people hate SWEs.
  - allset_ 7y ago
    It's on the Getting Debian page, so two clicks total.
    - phosphophyllite 7y ago
      How can I find "unofficial" testing image with non-free drivers?
  - _delirium 7y ago
    There's a big "Getting Debian" link at the top of every page!
  - 29athrowaway 7y ago
    "Getting Debian". From there you have roughly 5 options: 1) small installer that gets packages over the internet (netinst) 2) large installer that includes a bunch of packages ("CDs") 3) same as 2 but delivered to you physically 4) qcow2 cloud images 5) a live CD + installer 6) a computer with debian preinstalled netinst is recommended if you can have a network interface that is supported out of the box. Ubuntu's installation would be equivalent to 5) and is the friendliest UX. You are expected to know which architecture you are using although branding makes it really hard for new users to figure that out.
  - Avamander 7y ago
    Clearly people replying that haven't had to instruct other people to download it for a very long time.
    - detaro 7y ago
      "Here, let me send you a link"
      - Avamander 7y ago
        Over a voice call?
        CRConrad 7y ago
        "What's your e-mail address, so I can send you a link?"
- ohazi 7y ago
  As long as you have an ethernet cable if you have a laptop with an intel wifi card.
  - U8dcN7vx 7y ago
    And good bandwidth, which of course not everyone has. But there are tradeoffs in every choice.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  What in the world is a "network install" and what is "amd64"? Sounds geeky, I don't know what this is.
  - shpx 7y ago
    I remember installing Linux when I was like 14 and having a hard time trying to understand what x86/x86_64/x64/arm64 was. Knowledge that is mandatory, isn't explained in the place where kids encounter it for the first time, but completely useless if all you want to do is use a computer.
hlieberman 7y ago
You need the Debian Gotham Needs: https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs
- gruez 7y ago
  >ALMOST CERTAINLY THIS ONE >(x64 testing + non-free firmware) why testing?
  - ebg13 7y ago
    Presumably because it's the most pleasant of the options to actually use, not obsolete and not chaotic.
    - yakubin 7y ago
      And without security backports...
      - ebg13 7y ago
        Yes, all of the options are bad. Testing is the option that seems least bad for most people.
userbinator 7y ago
I think that says more about the attention span of people in 2019 than anything else... below the announcement and description of "what's changed" there is this: The installation images may be downloaded right now via bittorrent (the recommended method), jigdo, or HTTP; see Debian on CDs for further information.
asveikau 7y ago
False! I have done my share of Debian installs over the years and I don't have anything above a bachelor's degree.
- winrid 7y ago
  Hell, I was doing it when I was 15... :p
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
jefurii 7y ago
Really? What about the "Download Debian 10.0" link in the top right of the home page? Or "The latest stable release of Debian is 10.0" down near the fold? There's also the "Getting Debian" link at the head of one of the columns right in the middle of the page.
- ebg13 7y ago
  None of those are actually download links. Keep digging. Go past the definition of "free", turn left at the difference between a USB stick and a flexible USB stick, and then the third door from the end of the hall across from the one marked JIGDO MIPSEL will take you into a dark closet filled with laundry and checksums. It may as well be root/.workspace/.garbage.
  - vbernat 7y ago
    The "Download Debian 10.0" is a direct link to the ISO.
    - ebg13 7y ago
      Which is not the first link one sees for "Getting Debian" on the left-justified front page. In fact the first link one sees for "Getting Debian" is called "Getting Debian", and it takes you into the upside down. So in order to use your link, first you need to be lucky or wired (because that download doesn't include the wifi firmware that most people will need for the install), and then you need to either already know where not to go or spend time digging around and backtracking.
- pja 7y ago
  I agree that the links are there on the front page, but the page as a whole is so busy that they’re hard to spot! I think the OP is right that the Debian homepage could probably do with some simplification - there’s nothing wrong with having all these options available, but most people are just going to want a CD image they can write to a USB stick these days.
mmphosis 7y ago
2.4. Installation Media 2.4.1. CD-ROM/DVD-ROM/BD-ROM 2.4.2. USB Memory Stick 2.4.3. Network 2.4.4. Hard Disk 2.4.5. Un*x or GNU system 2.4.6. Supported Storage Systems https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch02s04.en.html https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch02s04.en.html I am going to burn a CD-ROM and/or DVD-ROM. It's been a while and feels very retro, I guess I could do this. What is a a BD-ROM? I am going to use dd to copy the image onto a USB Memory Stick. I've done that. I am going to do a Network install, no I am not going to do this. Hard Disk install, this is how I installed it previously. Let me find my notes. Whether it's CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, USB Memory Stick, or Hard Disk install, the tricky bit is getting the computer to boot the image from that media. And, the tricky part about this is knowing the incantation for GRUB to do this. And, the additional tricky part is the mangled PC EUFI/Secure boot settings. If it's the raspberry pi it's easy: I stick the USB Memory stick in the pi and go. If it's the PC, it's well, as you said: forensics. I wish that I could download a little install program, and install a fresh OS into one of the many free partitions on the PC, and that the installer would automatically configure GRUB to recognize that new OS without the incantations, and without stomping on other distros.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  BD-ROM: Blu-Ray Disk Read Only Memory. https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BD-ROM https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BD-ROM
- asveikau 7y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean because I've never had to type anything manually at the grub prompt in an installation use case -- the boot images seem to be configured right, to give you a ramdisk and go into an installer. But I will say: > I am going to do a Network install, no I am not going to do this. For Debian netinst really is the best. Debian has a lot of packages. I haven't kept up with all the full media over the years [first time I did a debian install was '99 or so], but it's always seemed pretty "completist", and contains more than I'll ever use. With netinst you get a base system, it gets you to a shell quickly and you can apt-get exactly what you need without a lot else.
- CRConrad 7y ago
diffeomorphism 7y ago
If you go to the front page https://www.debian.org/ https://www.debian.org/ the download link is in right part of the giant banner. Where can I collect my PhD?
- Barrin92 7y ago
  to be fair that is the free version and a majority of end users will likely need non-free versions with driver support for wi-fi and such, with is relatively annoying to find.
  - d00bianista 7y ago
    What? There is no such thing as 'non-free' Debian. The Debian repositories do contain the 'non-free' section which is used to deliver non-free firmware among other things.
    - 0815test 7y ago
      There are unofficial "non-free" Debian images (both install and live) that contain said non-free firmware, though. And though they're 'unofficial', they may be needed to enable even fairly baseline features on recent hardware.
    - layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
      Then what’s this? http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-inc...
      - als0 7y ago
        Those images are unofficial so no wonder they're hard to find.
        d00bianista 7y ago
        I would not trust any unofficial installer. Luckily many problems can be solved with a USB-Ethernet adapter and later configuration of the systen, since the issue usually lies in exotic network hardware.

I love how it's 2019 and installing Debian still requires a PhD in forensic psychology to find the download link.

by ebg13 7y ago

I love how it's 2019 and installing Debian still requires a PhD in forensic psychology to find the download link.

infinity0 7y ago

You're still thinking like a passive consumer, you won't get very far changing the world like that.

29athrowaway 7y ago

Debian network install (amd64) is a safe choice.

ebg13 7y ago
How many clicks does it take to find that? Scratch that. How do you find that without knowing exactly where it is already? What do you click on? Where is it on the page? What and how much do you have to ignore before you finally get to the part at every stage that's actually relevant to the breadcrumb trail? [edit] The "click Get Debian" responses are absolutely killing me. OH YES AND THEN WHAT? How many paragraphs of jargon do you have to casually slide past? How many links do you have to _not_ click? How do you know which links to actually click vs all the ones that you're supposed to not click? The definition of "free"? The "installation manual"? Will the small image be incomplete? What's the difference between a small CD and a tiny CD? What's the difference between a USB stick and a "flexible" USB stick? Can't I put a DVD on a USB stick? I swear this kind of UX aspect blindness is why people hate SWEs.
- allset_ 7y ago
  It's on the Getting Debian page, so two clicks total.
  - phosphophyllite 7y ago
    How can I find "unofficial" testing image with non-free drivers?
- _delirium 7y ago
  There's a big "Getting Debian" link at the top of every page!
- 29athrowaway 7y ago
  "Getting Debian". From there you have roughly 5 options: 1) small installer that gets packages over the internet (netinst) 2) large installer that includes a bunch of packages ("CDs") 3) same as 2 but delivered to you physically 4) qcow2 cloud images 5) a live CD + installer 6) a computer with debian preinstalled netinst is recommended if you can have a network interface that is supported out of the box. Ubuntu's installation would be equivalent to 5) and is the friendliest UX. You are expected to know which architecture you are using although branding makes it really hard for new users to figure that out.
- Avamander 7y ago
  Clearly people replying that haven't had to instruct other people to download it for a very long time.
  - detaro 7y ago
    "Here, let me send you a link"
    - Avamander 7y ago
      Over a voice call?
      - CRConrad 7y ago
        "What's your e-mail address, so I can send you a link?"
ohazi 7y ago
As long as you have an ethernet cable if you have a laptop with an intel wifi card.
- U8dcN7vx 7y ago
  And good bandwidth, which of course not everyone has. But there are tradeoffs in every choice.
nerdponx 7y ago
What in the world is a "network install" and what is "amd64"? Sounds geeky, I don't know what this is.
- shpx 7y ago
  I remember installing Linux when I was like 14 and having a hard time trying to understand what x86/x86_64/x64/arm64 was. Knowledge that is mandatory, isn't explained in the place where kids encounter it for the first time, but completely useless if all you want to do is use a computer.

hlieberman 7y ago

You need the Debian Gotham Needs: https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs

gruez 7y ago
>ALMOST CERTAINLY THIS ONE >(x64 testing + non-free firmware) why testing?
- ebg13 7y ago
  Presumably because it's the most pleasant of the options to actually use, not obsolete and not chaotic.
  - yakubin 7y ago
    And without security backports...
    - ebg13 7y ago
      Yes, all of the options are bad. Testing is the option that seems least bad for most people.

userbinator 7y ago

I think that says more about the attention span of people in 2019 than anything else... below the announcement and description of "what's changed" there is this: The installation images may be downloaded right now via bittorrent (the recommended method), jigdo, or HTTP; see Debian on CDs for further information.

asveikau 7y ago

False! I have done my share of Debian installs over the years and I don't have anything above a bachelor's degree.

winrid 7y ago
Hell, I was doing it when I was 15... :p
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

jefurii 7y ago

Really? What about the "Download Debian 10.0" link in the top right of the home page? Or "The latest stable release of Debian is 10.0" down near the fold? There's also the "Getting Debian" link at the head of one of the columns right in the middle of the page.

ebg13 7y ago
None of those are actually download links. Keep digging. Go past the definition of "free", turn left at the difference between a USB stick and a flexible USB stick, and then the third door from the end of the hall across from the one marked JIGDO MIPSEL will take you into a dark closet filled with laundry and checksums. It may as well be root/.workspace/.garbage.
- vbernat 7y ago
  The "Download Debian 10.0" is a direct link to the ISO.
  - ebg13 7y ago
    Which is not the first link one sees for "Getting Debian" on the left-justified front page. In fact the first link one sees for "Getting Debian" is called "Getting Debian", and it takes you into the upside down. So in order to use your link, first you need to be lucky or wired (because that download doesn't include the wifi firmware that most people will need for the install), and then you need to either already know where not to go or spend time digging around and backtracking.
pja 7y ago
I agree that the links are there on the front page, but the page as a whole is so busy that they’re hard to spot! I think the OP is right that the Debian homepage could probably do with some simplification - there’s nothing wrong with having all these options available, but most people are just going to want a CD image they can write to a USB stick these days.

mmphosis 7y ago

2.4. Installation Media 2.4.1. CD-ROM/DVD-ROM/BD-ROM 2.4.2. USB Memory Stick 2.4.3. Network 2.4.4. Hard Disk 2.4.5. Un*x or GNU system 2.4.6. Supported Storage Systems https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch02s04.en.html https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch02s04.en.html I am going to burn a CD-ROM and/or DVD-ROM. It's been a while and feels very retro, I guess I could do this. What is a a BD-ROM? I am going to use dd to copy the image onto a USB Memory Stick. I've done that. I am going to do a Network install, no I am not going to do this. Hard Disk install, this is how I installed it previously. Let me find my notes. Whether it's CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, USB Memory Stick, or Hard Disk install, the tricky bit is getting the computer to boot the image from that media. And, the tricky part about this is knowing the incantation for GRUB to do this. And, the additional tricky part is the mangled PC EUFI/Secure boot settings. If it's the raspberry pi it's easy: I stick the USB Memory stick in the pi and go. If it's the PC, it's well, as you said: forensics. I wish that I could download a little install program, and install a fresh OS into one of the many free partitions on the PC, and that the installer would automatically configure GRUB to recognize that new OS without the incantations, and without stomping on other distros.

dredmorbius 7y ago
BD-ROM: Blu-Ray Disk Read Only Memory. https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BD-ROM https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BD-ROM
asveikau 7y ago
I'm not sure what you mean because I've never had to type anything manually at the grub prompt in an installation use case -- the boot images seem to be configured right, to give you a ramdisk and go into an installer. But I will say: > I am going to do a Network install, no I am not going to do this. For Debian netinst really is the best. Debian has a lot of packages. I haven't kept up with all the full media over the years [first time I did a debian install was '99 or so], but it's always seemed pretty "completist", and contains more than I'll ever use. With netinst you get a base system, it gets you to a shell quickly and you can apt-get exactly what you need without a lot else.
CRConrad 7y ago

diffeomorphism 7y ago

If you go to the front page https://www.debian.org/ https://www.debian.org/ the download link is in right part of the giant banner. Where can I collect my PhD?

Barrin92 7y ago
to be fair that is the free version and a majority of end users will likely need non-free versions with driver support for wi-fi and such, with is relatively annoying to find.
- d00bianista 7y ago
  What? There is no such thing as 'non-free' Debian. The Debian repositories do contain the 'non-free' section which is used to deliver non-free firmware among other things.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    There are unofficial "non-free" Debian images (both install and live) that contain said non-free firmware, though. And though they're 'unofficial', they may be needed to enable even fairly baseline features on recent hardware.
  - layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
    Then what’s this? http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-inc...
    - als0 7y ago
      Those images are unofficial so no wonder they're hard to find.
      - d00bianista 7y ago
        I would not trust any unofficial installer. Luckily many problems can be solved with a USB-Ethernet adapter and later configuration of the systen, since the issue usually lies in exotic network hardware.