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> This is a feature, not a bug....Healthy communities are comprised of people who are trusting and permissive by default. It's entirely possible to find a happ

> This is a feature, not a bug....Healthy communities are comprised of people who are trusting and permissive by default. It's entirely possible to find a happy medium. You can be trusting without being totally naive about individuals with bad intentions.

Waterluvian 7y ago
It's only that your community evolves to be less trusting because unfortunately it has to. So the happy medium is really just a sacrifice of a good trait for a less good one only because you have to.
pdpi 7y ago
Anywhere you fall on this naivety/acceptance continuum, I can both show you a fraudster you didn’t detect that you should have, and a serious speaker you blocked but shouldn’t. In hindsight it’s always easy to say what the right outcome should have been, but, in Wright’s case, he has enough legitimate credentials that it’s hard to argue that we shouldn’t at least hear him out.
- Kaveren 7y ago
  wright is a complete con man with absolutely no credibility. someone like satoshi would never, ever, ever reveal their identity publicly. this is the most obvious thing, and anyone who thinks this is up for debate is gullible. his credentials are lacking and also completely irrelevant.
- inimino 7y ago
  It's not just a continuum, because in addition to being more or less trusting you also always have the option to do just a little more work to be sure. Trust, but verify.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
It really isn't, per what 'pdpi wrote. What we should do is being maximally trusting (to reap the efficiency benefits), and punish hard anyone trying to take advantage of it, way out of proportion compared to the magnitude of the violation, in order to discourage people from abusing the trust of others. The goal really is to let everyone be safe in trusting others to the point of naivete, because trust is that huge of an efficiency hack. (I mean, think of the ridiculous amounts of energy Bitcoin wastes with its proof-of-work scheme, precisely because it tries to replace trust with computation. This energy is what trust saves you.)
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I have a great example from today of the efficiency of trust. I went to a three storey old factory turned into an antiques store. 150 000 square feet. Three floors of booths of all kinds of stuff. Coins, cards, collectibles, toys, furniture, everything. The whole place had maybe five visible employees. It was all consignment. You'd pick up $300 worth of nicknacks from the top floor and walk it down to the first floor to buy. It's incredibly easy to steal from if you wanted. So what I see are hundreds of individual vendors that don't need to be at their booth because of the trust between vendors, the managers, and the public. If we were part of a culture where theft was all but guaranteed, that store just wouldn't be able to exist.
  - skybrian 7y ago
    Very true, trust matters, but it might help a bit that many antiques aren't useful in themselves and aren't that easy to sell. If they were selling razors or baby formula, maybe things would be different? Do you think they have cameras?
    - codedokode 7y ago
      Coins are easy to sell.
    - Waterluvian 7y ago
      I don't want to get into the implementation details of this store as that's not the point of my anecdote. Either trust me that this place was an example of trust, or don't. ;)
- mrkstu 7y ago
  I spent much of my youth in Utah, and it is probably the epitome of this. Best state Gini coefficient [0]. Great income mobility (also best in US [1]). It also has a rampant fraud/ponzi/mlm issue [3]. They come from the same source- There is a general level of trust that is much higher than anywhere else I've lived or experienced. Mostly rooted in a trust in others is part and parcel of the culture and dominant religion. I don't think the upsides would be achievable without the downsides that seem endemic to it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_coefficient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_co... [1] https://business.utah.gov/news/utah-at-top-in-nation-for-upward-income-mobility/ https://business.utah.gov/news/utah-at-top-in-nation-for-upw... [3] https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900068203/does-utah-deserve-the-title-fraud-capital-of-the-united-states.html https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900068203/does-utah-dese...
api 7y ago
I am fond of a saying that apparently comes from the intelligence world: "trust, but verify." It never hurts to check. If you are dealing with a big liar you can usually catch them quickly enough, sometimes by just verifying small things like work or school history.

Waterluvian 7y ago

It's only that your community evolves to be less trusting because unfortunately it has to. So the happy medium is really just a sacrifice of a good trait for a less good one only because you have to.

pdpi 7y ago

Anywhere you fall on this naivety/acceptance continuum, I can both show you a fraudster you didn’t detect that you should have, and a serious speaker you blocked but shouldn’t. In hindsight it’s always easy to say what the right outcome should have been, but, in Wright’s case, he has enough legitimate credentials that it’s hard to argue that we shouldn’t at least hear him out.

Kaveren 7y ago
wright is a complete con man with absolutely no credibility. someone like satoshi would never, ever, ever reveal their identity publicly. this is the most obvious thing, and anyone who thinks this is up for debate is gullible. his credentials are lacking and also completely irrelevant.
inimino 7y ago
It's not just a continuum, because in addition to being more or less trusting you also always have the option to do just a little more work to be sure. Trust, but verify.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

It really isn't, per what 'pdpi wrote. What we should do is being maximally trusting (to reap the efficiency benefits), and punish hard anyone trying to take advantage of it, way out of proportion compared to the magnitude of the violation, in order to discourage people from abusing the trust of others. The goal really is to let everyone be safe in trusting others to the point of naivete, because trust is that huge of an efficiency hack. (I mean, think of the ridiculous amounts of energy Bitcoin wastes with its proof-of-work scheme, precisely because it tries to replace trust with computation. This energy is what trust saves you.)

Waterluvian 7y ago
I have a great example from today of the efficiency of trust. I went to a three storey old factory turned into an antiques store. 150 000 square feet. Three floors of booths of all kinds of stuff. Coins, cards, collectibles, toys, furniture, everything. The whole place had maybe five visible employees. It was all consignment. You'd pick up $300 worth of nicknacks from the top floor and walk it down to the first floor to buy. It's incredibly easy to steal from if you wanted. So what I see are hundreds of individual vendors that don't need to be at their booth because of the trust between vendors, the managers, and the public. If we were part of a culture where theft was all but guaranteed, that store just wouldn't be able to exist.
- skybrian 7y ago
  Very true, trust matters, but it might help a bit that many antiques aren't useful in themselves and aren't that easy to sell. If they were selling razors or baby formula, maybe things would be different? Do you think they have cameras?
  - codedokode 7y ago
    Coins are easy to sell.
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    I don't want to get into the implementation details of this store as that's not the point of my anecdote. Either trust me that this place was an example of trust, or don't. ;)
mrkstu 7y ago
I spent much of my youth in Utah, and it is probably the epitome of this. Best state Gini coefficient [0]. Great income mobility (also best in US [1]). It also has a rampant fraud/ponzi/mlm issue [3]. They come from the same source- There is a general level of trust that is much higher than anywhere else I've lived or experienced. Mostly rooted in a trust in others is part and parcel of the culture and dominant religion. I don't think the upsides would be achievable without the downsides that seem endemic to it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_coefficient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_co... [1] https://business.utah.gov/news/utah-at-top-in-nation-for-upward-income-mobility/ https://business.utah.gov/news/utah-at-top-in-nation-for-upw... [3] https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900068203/does-utah-deserve-the-title-fraud-capital-of-the-united-states.html https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900068203/does-utah-dese...

api 7y ago

I am fond of a saying that apparently comes from the intelligence world: "trust, but verify." It never hurts to check. If you are dealing with a big liar you can usually catch them quickly enough, sometimes by just verifying small things like work or school history.