12 ms·

Google Engineer bails out student in jail

540 points by staktrace 16y ago

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
matwood 16y ago
There are just so many WTF moments in this story. 1) Why are police involved with a kid smoking at school? Kids caught smoking when I was in HS got after school detention. 2) There seems to be zero respect for the police officer. At what point did kids quit respecting police and did the police lose that respect? 3) The DA actually bringing charges against someone who just looks to have been idly filming the event. Where are charges against the more rowdy people? 4) The judge letting this case go forward.
- e40 16y ago
  People in the US lost respect for police officers when they became bullies. Either they're giving law-abiding citizens tickets or they are killing and injuring suspects in their custody. Yes, I know, it's not all cops. But, there are too many of these stories in the news. Young people, especially those that hang out on reddit, will definitely have the sense that cops are just bad. I live in Oakland, CA. Lots of crime here, but the beat cops spend most of their time generating revenue and hassling people unlikely to be dangerous (to them). It is pretty pathetic. EDIT: an example (from the 80's) I was in a bad part of Oakland one day, driving down a one-way street (2 lanes). A couple of blocks in front of me was a cop waving everyone on the street over to the side. Each one of us (20+ people) got a ticket. Mine was for "straddling the lanes", even though I protested that I was changing lanes because I saw him standing in my lane. I realized that he was just making something up. I contested the ticket and he didn't show up. He knew he had no leg to stand on. How many of the people in that poor neighborhood did that? How many just ignored the ticket and were later arrested on a bench warrant? Really pathetic. That's the day I lost respect for them. (And, this happened in the early 80's.)
lkrubner 16y ago
Mike Konczal has posted an interesting chart suggesting a link between economic freedom and prison: http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/the-conservative-world-view-and-prison-populations-war-on-drugs/ http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/the-conservative-w...
pixelcort 16y ago
When I've heard mention of Neil Fraser in the past I've thought of his awesome MobWrite project. But now I'll think of what he did for this kid and his family. Makes one think about what one wants to be known for.
- shaver 16y ago
  Neil is one of the world's quietly great people. I had the good fortune of knowing him in high school, and working with him at my first job (Ingenia Communications, running Canada's SchoolNet). He's always been an alloy of incredible intellect, diligent attention to detail, and calm kindness. Every time I come across his work and thinking, I get inspired (and humbled) anew. I hope my daughter grows up in a world with a few more Neil Frasers.
- benatkin 16y ago
  I know of him because of http://code.google.com/p/google-diff-match-patch/ http://code.google.com/p/google-diff-match-patch/ which is best in its class by a longshot. And it's a very awesome class of a library: a powerful text diff tool with implementations in multiple languages. Haven't read TFA yet but I'm expecting I'll be even more impressed by him when I get done reading it. Edit: read the article. What an amazing contribution to justice! I'm especially glad to hear of Google matching some legal funds. By the way, he's likely to get the bail money back.
  - gcb 16y ago
    The bail and nicely commented code. now you can't not like the guy!
    - benatkin 16y ago
      If you don't like heroes, you could not like the guy!
olalonde 16y ago
Anyone knows what was the bail out amount?
- d3fun 16y ago
  "Christmas miracle as Bay Area Google engineer pays $50,000 to spring student from jail" http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-16/news/jeremy-marks-bailed-out/ http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-16/news/jeremy-marks-bailed-...
- flatline 16y ago
  ~$50K that he put up of his own money. There is a longer discussion (and link to another article) at Reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/eqj5b/redditor_bails_out_student_jailed_for_filming/ http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/eqj5b/redditor_b...
- irons 16y ago
  $155,000, according to the linked story. Fraser paid $50,000, which he'll get back when the kid makes his court dates. The alternative was paying 10% and not getting it back, which I didn't know was standard policy. (Most of what I know about bail bonds comes from Jackie Brown.)
  - ars 16y ago
    It's the policy of the bondsman, not the court. You basically pay the bondsman 10% of the bond in exchange for them posting the rest of it. Some people skip the hearing, and then the bondsman is out the money, so they keep the 10% to cover their risk. I don't know how the $50,000 number works - it seems the bond company is paying the rest of it, but I don't know what they get in return.
    - cd34 16y ago
      A bondsman may also make you sign over collateral for the bail and make you put up 10%. If you skip, you (or a family member) loses something like... a house. Once you skip, a bondsman has some pretty darn liberal rights at returning you to the law - and getting his money back.
woodrow 16y ago
In case you're (like me) wondering what "attempted lynching" means in the context of the article, consider yourself enlightened by the California Penal Code: 405a. The taking by means of a riot of any person from the lawful custody of any peace officer is a lynching. 405b. Every person who participates in any lynching is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years. I can't imagine this is what the law was written to be used for, given the usual connotation of lynching.
- gcb 16y ago
  “For my friends anything, for my enemies, the Law”
- adamjernst 16y ago
  The original (pre-racist) definition of "lynching" was populist punishment before a proper trial. Crowds would break into jail, remove a suspect that had yet to be given a proper trial, and hang (or otherwise punish) him.
  - ericflo 16y ago
    Now companies and countries do that for us! coughWikiLeakscough
- waterlesscloud 16y ago
  The part about "attempted lynching" results from an accusation that the student yelled "Kick her (the police officer's) ass!" during the confrontation. At least that makes the charge make sense, though of course who knows if it's true or not. Details were linked off the linked page- http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempted-lynching-case/ http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempt...
  - rdl 16y ago
    New goal in life: if I ever have children, don't send them to LAUSD schools. Schools with armed police at the door are undesirable -- borderline tolerable if they're there to protect from outsiders, but if they're needed to control the students, something is seriously wrong.
rdl 16y ago
It's probably worthwhile to have some familiarity with how the arrest/jail/lawyer process works beforehand. While for most people it is a low-frequency event, it's not good to learn about the process for the first time while in jail! The key is: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#docid=-4097602514885833865 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912# http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#
- gcb 16y ago
  In Brazil we used to have "civic classes" in highschool about that. Then it became classes on things like "how to not be racist" and then they disappeared completely.
- aperiodic 16y ago
  Disclaimer: I Am Not A Laywer It's also good to familiarize yourself with the distinctions between detention and arrest. In the United States, "detention" is whenever police temporarily restrict someone's rights based on an "articulable" suspicion that a crime has occurred. Police can detain anyone at any time if they have an articulable suspicion, but only for a short period of time, and they cannot search the belongings or vehicles of people in detention without consent (many cops will try to obtain consent by saying things like "let me see what's in your bag," but you are well within your rights to verbally deny consent). A good way to establish if you're being detained is to ask the officer if you're free to go. If not, you should then ask why you're being detained, and memorize the response. This is the "articulable suspicion" that the officer is supposed to have before detaining you. "Arrest" occurs when "any reasonable person" would feel that they are not free to leave. The distinction between detainment and arrest is subtle, but if you're being handcuffed or put into a police vehicle, your belongings or vehicle are being searched after you have denied consent, or you are detained for an extended period of time, then you're under arrest. Crucially, police are not required to make any formal declaration of your arrest, nor are they required to read you your Miranda rights (though they are required to read them if they wish to question you). If you feel that you're under arrest, your best course of action is to state that you refuse to speak and wish to see an attorney. You can repeat this as often as is necessary. They're not allowed to question you after you say this, but only if don't say anything else. If you do, then you've waived your right to silence. The only exception is that you are allowed to give your name and address in order to be released with a promise to appear in court. If you do give that information, immediately follow it by repeating that you will remain silent until an attorney is present. Again, I Am Not A Lawyer, although all of this information does come from lawyers who give talks about civil liberties. None of these talks are online, but most of the above is explained in more detail on an actual lawyer's website[1]. [1]: http://www.williamweinberg.com/lawyer-attorney-1127658.html http://www.williamweinberg.com/lawyer-attorney-1127658.html
meterplech 16y ago
While people sometimes knock the Reddit community on here this is an impressive example of Redditors really helping people. Great job to the founders and everyone who put Reddit together, for all the sarcasm and jokes about it it's really cool to see stories like this. Most importantly, good luck to this kid!
gcb 16y ago
or this guy's lawyer was benign or the system is really screwed up. I would really like to read the analysis of the judge to justify that one.
pieceofpeace 16y ago
[From: http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempted-lynching-case/ http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempt...] The first thing to understand is that Jeremy Marks touched no one during his "attempted lynching" of LAUSD campus police officer Erin Robles. The second is that Marks' weapon was the camera in his cell phone. The third is that Officer Robles' own actions helped turn an exceedingly minor wrongdoing — a student smoking at a bus stop — into a state prison case. --- Edit to add: Jeremy wasn't smoking, just recording the cop (which is legal in his state)(wo)man-handling the smoker.
patrickaljord 16y ago
I don't live in the US but when I read that kind of story or how Bradley Manning is treated (regardless of whether he's guilty or not), it really looks like the US is acting like the worst kind of police state or despotism (where the despot would be a mixture of corporations and corrupt media/politicians).
- paulbaumgart 16y ago
  Keep in mind that the US is a very distributed system. You can have a local District Attorney who decides to pursue cases like this, but in the next jurisdiction over, you could very well have a DA who is an entirely reasonable person and would never allow something like this to happen. Eventually these things usually get sorted out in some higher court, but that can take years and can really mess up a person's life in the meantime. Especially if that person is poor, unfortunately.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Well, as long as some people aren't being abused, the system is fine and in no need of repair.
    - mscarborough 16y ago
      Not the point he was trying to make. There are plenty of flaws, but there are different avenues available other than what the GP mentioned.
  - 3pt14159 16y ago
    This is why a government of law is far, far better than a government of men.
- pyre 16y ago
  The way that Bradley Manning is being treated doesn't surprise me too much. He is suspected of "leaking classified information," so it would make sense to keep him in solitary confinement from a government/military bureaucrat's point of view. If they don't segregate him, he might leak more secrets to other people. The other stuff (no mattress or pillow) just seems like pettiness on the part of the people in power that were embarrassed.
mixmax 16y ago
25% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.
- smokinn 16y ago
  This clip from the british TV show IQ goes into those kinds of numbers. It's staggering. Especially for black men. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E7wgFcCefE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E7wgFcCefE
- qq66 16y ago
  That 25% number seems pretty hard to believe, given that compared to all countries (not developed countries) America is very low-crime and America is 5% of the world's population. I suspect that either a) poorer countries are too cash-strapped to lock up dangerous criminals or b) that many poorer countries don't have reliable data on prisoner numbers.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    Another possibility is that America is jailing a lot of people who are not really "dangerous criminals".
  - bad_user 16y ago
    You forgot (c) law enforcement gone mad in the US.
    - qq66 16y ago
      I didn't forget it, I don't think that that can be a 50x effect.
      - rhizome 16y ago
        You also can't be sure it's a zero-effect.
PanMan 16y ago
I love this quote, why he did this: "One of the things I learned was that bad things can only happen if good people do nothing. I consider myself to be a good person, so I had no choice but to act when I saw something like this happening."
nightlifelover 16y ago
lol at the US! Sounds like the police in a third world state.
- cookiecaper 16y ago
  Yeah, I've never heard of charges being maliciously fabricated against a perceived enemy of the local authoritarians anywhere else. Not even in Sweden.
- mrcharles 16y ago
  Yeah, it's so funny to see a kid's life ruined. Ha ha. Good comedy all around. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, I hope you enjoy your perch.
dschobel 16y ago
You can talk about the privatization of the penal system as yielding degenerate incentives but ultimately it's up to the police on the streets to get them into the system. If there's no dead body, damaged/missing property or even an aggrieved person (as in this case) what problem are the police trying to solve by capriciously jailing people? What's the incentive here?
- billswift 16y ago
  Since the real crime he committed was obviously "contempt of cop", the incentive for the cop is to encourage people to kowtow properly, by showing them what happens when you don't.
Natsu 16y ago
Honestly, I think we're going to need a constitutional right to videotape on-duty cops or something one of these days. That, and more people who refuse to convict anyone for "resisting arrest", especially when that's the only charge and none of the cops are injured. Doubly so if only the suspect is injured. I realize they charged them with "attempted lynching" here, but "resisting arrest" is by far the more common charge. Mind you, I'm not saying that one can't resist arrest or that it shouldn't be a crime, only that I wish more people were wise to the abuse of that charge and that they knew to look for warning signs that it's being used abusively. Specifically, I would consider it to be a warning sign if: no cops are injured, there's heavily injured suspect especially when they're disproportionately injured compared to the hypothetical threat they might pose to an officer (two large cops shouldn't be very threatened by a small, unarmed kid), no weapons are found or alleged to have been seen, officer say-so is the only evidence of the crime, suspect is charged with no crime except resisting, contradictory or non-existent testimony about what they were arresting for to begin with and any other contradictions in the evidence.
abraham 16y ago
This is why you use a livestream tool like Ustream or JustinTV so your video evidence can't be destroyed.
GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
We need tiny spy camera attachments which work on bluetooth with your cellphone. These should be cheap to make (a couple of bucks) and everyone should have one with their phones. This way we can record without police knowing.
nickfromseattle 16y ago
I wonder how the situation will evolve as cameras that can stream to the cloud are introduced into the marketplace. I imagine it cant be more then 10 years away.
stonerinsoma 16y ago
Anti-Flag says it best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEtEG2Q7zCk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEtEG2Q7zCk The police are not there to protect us, they are a bunch of gestapo thugs who have been hired to keep us enslaved.
webuiarchitect 16y ago
I liked the statement he made, "Bad things can only happen if good people do nothing".
pixelbeat 16y ago
I'd already noted Neil Fraser as an open source star http://www.pixelbeat.org/misc/google_stars.html http://www.pixelbeat.org/misc/google_stars.html but now see he's an all around great guy

540 points by staktrace 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

There are just so many WTF moments in this story. 1) Why are police involved with a kid smoking at school? Kids caught smoking when I was in HS got after school detention. 2) There seems to be zero respect for the police officer. At what point did kids quit respecting police and did the police lose that respect? 3) The DA actually bringing charges against someone who just looks to have been idly filming the event. Where are charges against the more rowdy people? 4) The judge letting this case go forward.

e40 16y ago
People in the US lost respect for police officers when they became bullies. Either they're giving law-abiding citizens tickets or they are killing and injuring suspects in their custody. Yes, I know, it's not all cops. But, there are too many of these stories in the news. Young people, especially those that hang out on reddit, will definitely have the sense that cops are just bad. I live in Oakland, CA. Lots of crime here, but the beat cops spend most of their time generating revenue and hassling people unlikely to be dangerous (to them). It is pretty pathetic. EDIT: an example (from the 80's) I was in a bad part of Oakland one day, driving down a one-way street (2 lanes). A couple of blocks in front of me was a cop waving everyone on the street over to the side. Each one of us (20+ people) got a ticket. Mine was for "straddling the lanes", even though I protested that I was changing lanes because I saw him standing in my lane. I realized that he was just making something up. I contested the ticket and he didn't show up. He knew he had no leg to stand on. How many of the people in that poor neighborhood did that? How many just ignored the ticket and were later arrested on a bench warrant? Really pathetic. That's the day I lost respect for them. (And, this happened in the early 80's.)

lkrubner 16y ago

Mike Konczal has posted an interesting chart suggesting a link between economic freedom and prison: http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/the-conservative-world-view-and-prison-populations-war-on-drugs/ http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/the-conservative-w...

pixelcort 16y ago

When I've heard mention of Neil Fraser in the past I've thought of his awesome MobWrite project. But now I'll think of what he did for this kid and his family. Makes one think about what one wants to be known for.

shaver 16y ago
Neil is one of the world's quietly great people. I had the good fortune of knowing him in high school, and working with him at my first job (Ingenia Communications, running Canada's SchoolNet). He's always been an alloy of incredible intellect, diligent attention to detail, and calm kindness. Every time I come across his work and thinking, I get inspired (and humbled) anew. I hope my daughter grows up in a world with a few more Neil Frasers.
benatkin 16y ago
I know of him because of http://code.google.com/p/google-diff-match-patch/ http://code.google.com/p/google-diff-match-patch/ which is best in its class by a longshot. And it's a very awesome class of a library: a powerful text diff tool with implementations in multiple languages. Haven't read TFA yet but I'm expecting I'll be even more impressed by him when I get done reading it. Edit: read the article. What an amazing contribution to justice! I'm especially glad to hear of Google matching some legal funds. By the way, he's likely to get the bail money back.
- gcb 16y ago
  The bail and nicely commented code. now you can't not like the guy!
  - benatkin 16y ago
    If you don't like heroes, you could not like the guy!

olalonde 16y ago

Anyone knows what was the bail out amount?

d3fun 16y ago
"Christmas miracle as Bay Area Google engineer pays $50,000 to spring student from jail" http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-16/news/jeremy-marks-bailed-out/ http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-16/news/jeremy-marks-bailed-...
flatline 16y ago
~$50K that he put up of his own money. There is a longer discussion (and link to another article) at Reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/eqj5b/redditor_bails_out_student_jailed_for_filming/ http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/eqj5b/redditor_b...
irons 16y ago
$155,000, according to the linked story. Fraser paid $50,000, which he'll get back when the kid makes his court dates. The alternative was paying 10% and not getting it back, which I didn't know was standard policy. (Most of what I know about bail bonds comes from Jackie Brown.)
- ars 16y ago
  It's the policy of the bondsman, not the court. You basically pay the bondsman 10% of the bond in exchange for them posting the rest of it. Some people skip the hearing, and then the bondsman is out the money, so they keep the 10% to cover their risk. I don't know how the $50,000 number works - it seems the bond company is paying the rest of it, but I don't know what they get in return.
  - cd34 16y ago
    A bondsman may also make you sign over collateral for the bail and make you put up 10%. If you skip, you (or a family member) loses something like... a house. Once you skip, a bondsman has some pretty darn liberal rights at returning you to the law - and getting his money back.

woodrow 16y ago

In case you're (like me) wondering what "attempted lynching" means in the context of the article, consider yourself enlightened by the California Penal Code: 405a. The taking by means of a riot of any person from the lawful custody of any peace officer is a lynching. 405b. Every person who participates in any lynching is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years. I can't imagine this is what the law was written to be used for, given the usual connotation of lynching.

gcb 16y ago
“For my friends anything, for my enemies, the Law”
adamjernst 16y ago
The original (pre-racist) definition of "lynching" was populist punishment before a proper trial. Crowds would break into jail, remove a suspect that had yet to be given a proper trial, and hang (or otherwise punish) him.
- ericflo 16y ago
  Now companies and countries do that for us! coughWikiLeakscough
waterlesscloud 16y ago
The part about "attempted lynching" results from an accusation that the student yelled "Kick her (the police officer's) ass!" during the confrontation. At least that makes the charge make sense, though of course who knows if it's true or not. Details were linked off the linked page- http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempted-lynching-case/ http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempt...
- rdl 16y ago
  New goal in life: if I ever have children, don't send them to LAUSD schools. Schools with armed police at the door are undesirable -- borderline tolerable if they're there to protect from outsiders, but if they're needed to control the students, something is seriously wrong.

rdl 16y ago

It's probably worthwhile to have some familiarity with how the arrest/jail/lawyer process works beforehand. While for most people it is a low-frequency event, it's not good to learn about the process for the first time while in jail! The key is: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#docid=-4097602514885833865 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912# http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#

gcb 16y ago
In Brazil we used to have "civic classes" in highschool about that. Then it became classes on things like "how to not be racist" and then they disappeared completely.
aperiodic 16y ago
Disclaimer: I Am Not A Laywer It's also good to familiarize yourself with the distinctions between detention and arrest. In the United States, "detention" is whenever police temporarily restrict someone's rights based on an "articulable" suspicion that a crime has occurred. Police can detain anyone at any time if they have an articulable suspicion, but only for a short period of time, and they cannot search the belongings or vehicles of people in detention without consent (many cops will try to obtain consent by saying things like "let me see what's in your bag," but you are well within your rights to verbally deny consent). A good way to establish if you're being detained is to ask the officer if you're free to go. If not, you should then ask why you're being detained, and memorize the response. This is the "articulable suspicion" that the officer is supposed to have before detaining you. "Arrest" occurs when "any reasonable person" would feel that they are not free to leave. The distinction between detainment and arrest is subtle, but if you're being handcuffed or put into a police vehicle, your belongings or vehicle are being searched after you have denied consent, or you are detained for an extended period of time, then you're under arrest. Crucially, police are not required to make any formal declaration of your arrest, nor are they required to read you your Miranda rights (though they are required to read them if they wish to question you). If you feel that you're under arrest, your best course of action is to state that you refuse to speak and wish to see an attorney. You can repeat this as often as is necessary. They're not allowed to question you after you say this, but only if don't say anything else. If you do, then you've waived your right to silence. The only exception is that you are allowed to give your name and address in order to be released with a promise to appear in court. If you do give that information, immediately follow it by repeating that you will remain silent until an attorney is present. Again, I Am Not A Lawyer, although all of this information does come from lawyers who give talks about civil liberties. None of these talks are online, but most of the above is explained in more detail on an actual lawyer's website[1]. [1]: http://www.williamweinberg.com/lawyer-attorney-1127658.html http://www.williamweinberg.com/lawyer-attorney-1127658.html

meterplech 16y ago

While people sometimes knock the Reddit community on here this is an impressive example of Redditors really helping people. Great job to the founders and everyone who put Reddit together, for all the sarcasm and jokes about it it's really cool to see stories like this. Most importantly, good luck to this kid!

gcb 16y ago

or this guy's lawyer was benign or the system is really screwed up. I would really like to read the analysis of the judge to justify that one.

pieceofpeace 16y ago

[From: http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempted-lynching-case/ http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempt...] The first thing to understand is that Jeremy Marks touched no one during his "attempted lynching" of LAUSD campus police officer Erin Robles. The second is that Marks' weapon was the camera in his cell phone. The third is that Officer Robles' own actions helped turn an exceedingly minor wrongdoing — a student smoking at a bus stop — into a state prison case. --- Edit to add: Jeremy wasn't smoking, just recording the cop (which is legal in his state)(wo)man-handling the smoker.

patrickaljord 16y ago

I don't live in the US but when I read that kind of story or how Bradley Manning is treated (regardless of whether he's guilty or not), it really looks like the US is acting like the worst kind of police state or despotism (where the despot would be a mixture of corporations and corrupt media/politicians).

paulbaumgart 16y ago
Keep in mind that the US is a very distributed system. You can have a local District Attorney who decides to pursue cases like this, but in the next jurisdiction over, you could very well have a DA who is an entirely reasonable person and would never allow something like this to happen. Eventually these things usually get sorted out in some higher court, but that can take years and can really mess up a person's life in the meantime. Especially if that person is poor, unfortunately.
- jrockway 16y ago
  Well, as long as some people aren't being abused, the system is fine and in no need of repair.
  - mscarborough 16y ago
    Not the point he was trying to make. There are plenty of flaws, but there are different avenues available other than what the GP mentioned.
- 3pt14159 16y ago
  This is why a government of law is far, far better than a government of men.
pyre 16y ago
The way that Bradley Manning is being treated doesn't surprise me too much. He is suspected of "leaking classified information," so it would make sense to keep him in solitary confinement from a government/military bureaucrat's point of view. If they don't segregate him, he might leak more secrets to other people. The other stuff (no mattress or pillow) just seems like pettiness on the part of the people in power that were embarrassed.

mixmax 16y ago

25% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.

smokinn 16y ago
This clip from the british TV show IQ goes into those kinds of numbers. It's staggering. Especially for black men. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E7wgFcCefE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E7wgFcCefE
qq66 16y ago
That 25% number seems pretty hard to believe, given that compared to all countries (not developed countries) America is very low-crime and America is 5% of the world's population. I suspect that either a) poorer countries are too cash-strapped to lock up dangerous criminals or b) that many poorer countries don't have reliable data on prisoner numbers.
- _delirium 16y ago
  Another possibility is that America is jailing a lot of people who are not really "dangerous criminals".
- bad_user 16y ago
  You forgot (c) law enforcement gone mad in the US.
  - qq66 16y ago
    I didn't forget it, I don't think that that can be a 50x effect.
    - rhizome 16y ago
      You also can't be sure it's a zero-effect.

PanMan 16y ago

I love this quote, why he did this: "One of the things I learned was that bad things can only happen if good people do nothing. I consider myself to be a good person, so I had no choice but to act when I saw something like this happening."

nightlifelover 16y ago

lol at the US! Sounds like the police in a third world state.

cookiecaper 16y ago
Yeah, I've never heard of charges being maliciously fabricated against a perceived enemy of the local authoritarians anywhere else. Not even in Sweden.
mrcharles 16y ago
Yeah, it's so funny to see a kid's life ruined. Ha ha. Good comedy all around. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, I hope you enjoy your perch.

dschobel 16y ago

You can talk about the privatization of the penal system as yielding degenerate incentives but ultimately it's up to the police on the streets to get them into the system. If there's no dead body, damaged/missing property or even an aggrieved person (as in this case) what problem are the police trying to solve by capriciously jailing people? What's the incentive here?

billswift 16y ago
Since the real crime he committed was obviously "contempt of cop", the incentive for the cop is to encourage people to kowtow properly, by showing them what happens when you don't.

Natsu 16y ago

Honestly, I think we're going to need a constitutional right to videotape on-duty cops or something one of these days. That, and more people who refuse to convict anyone for "resisting arrest", especially when that's the only charge and none of the cops are injured. Doubly so if only the suspect is injured. I realize they charged them with "attempted lynching" here, but "resisting arrest" is by far the more common charge. Mind you, I'm not saying that one can't resist arrest or that it shouldn't be a crime, only that I wish more people were wise to the abuse of that charge and that they knew to look for warning signs that it's being used abusively. Specifically, I would consider it to be a warning sign if: no cops are injured, there's heavily injured suspect especially when they're disproportionately injured compared to the hypothetical threat they might pose to an officer (two large cops shouldn't be very threatened by a small, unarmed kid), no weapons are found or alleged to have been seen, officer say-so is the only evidence of the crime, suspect is charged with no crime except resisting, contradictory or non-existent testimony about what they were arresting for to begin with and any other contradictions in the evidence.

abraham 16y ago

This is why you use a livestream tool like Ustream or JustinTV so your video evidence can't be destroyed.

GrandMasterBirt 16y ago

We need tiny spy camera attachments which work on bluetooth with your cellphone. These should be cheap to make (a couple of bucks) and everyone should have one with their phones. This way we can record without police knowing.

nickfromseattle 16y ago

I wonder how the situation will evolve as cameras that can stream to the cloud are introduced into the marketplace. I imagine it cant be more then 10 years away.

stonerinsoma 16y ago

Anti-Flag says it best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEtEG2Q7zCk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEtEG2Q7zCk The police are not there to protect us, they are a bunch of gestapo thugs who have been hired to keep us enslaved.

webuiarchitect 16y ago

I liked the statement he made, "Bad things can only happen if good people do nothing".

pixelbeat 16y ago

I'd already noted Neil Fraser as an open source star http://www.pixelbeat.org/misc/google_stars.html http://www.pixelbeat.org/misc/google_stars.html but now see he's an all around great guy