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I think the lesson to learn here is that there is no such thing as a "free market" - all markets are constrained to some degree by the regulations that shape th

I think the lesson to learn here is that there is no such thing as a "free market" - all markets are constrained to some degree by the regulations that shape them. Markets are human creations just like languages, and the rules around them are designed either consciously or passively. When you let special interest groups define the rules, they tend to define them in their own favor. In the modern industrial state, corporations have discovered a very successful tactic of evading conscious interference by proclaiming their desire for "free markets" and then lobbying behind the scenes to tilt markets in their favor. When people wake up to this reality and smart businesspeople like those on HN stop pretending that a "free market" is some god-given natural state of affairs, then we will be able to level the playing field for small businesses against the corporate interests. Smart regulations are important to avoid abuse of power.

presidentender 16y ago
I would argue that the present market is certainly not free, but that does not make a free (that is, unregulated) market impossible.
- pbz 16y ago
  Or desirable.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Uh, The problem is it also doesn't make a free market *well-defined". If in a discussion "free market" has a willo-the-wisp quality in which whatever existences and is undesirable "isn't really a free market", then you haven't shown that "free market" is anything but rhetorical device.
jacoblyles 16y ago
>"I think the lesson to learn here is that there is no such thing as a 'free market'" That's a popular piece of rhetoric, but I don't buy it. Certainly a market with government handouts or regulations that bias the interests of some players over others is less free than a market without such interference. I think we can say that the transportation market was "more free" after competition killing regulation was removed from the trucking industry under the Carter administration, for example[1]. (People forget about Carter's libertarian streak, but libertarians don't. You can also thank Carter for deregulation of air travel[2] and delicious microbrewed beer[3].) Rather than lobbying to bias the market in favor of our preferred people, as you suggest we do, it is perfectly possible to lobby in favor of less special-interest rules. In fact there is a significant minority of people in this country who do just that. We call ourselves "libertarians". [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Carrier_Act_of_1980 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Carrier_Act_of_1980 [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act [3]http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/How-Jimmy-Carter-Saved-Craft-Beer-1766 http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/How-Jim...
- guelo 16y ago
  Yea that's been working out really well. /sarcasm
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  "That's a popular piece of rhetoric, but I don't buy it. Certainly a market with government handouts or regulations that bias the interests of some players over others is less free than a market without such interference." Really? What about a market in which a private entity behaves similarly or worse? The British East India company, for example, literally owned a country. With only the actions of a "private" entity, India's market were open primarily to ... British goods. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India ("During the period, 1780–1860, India changed from being an exporter of processed goods for which it received payment in bullion, to being an exporter of raw materials and a buyer of manufactured goods." ) What I've said to the libertarians here is "when everything is private, I will invest in the tanks, I think they'll be a profit center..."
num1 16y ago
I think the lesson to learn here is that free markets require maintenance and defending. A free market is by its very definition the natural state of affairs. In not only the modern industrial state, but every state America has known, we have added regulation upon regulation to the system to the point that the only way to be an entrepreneur is to create a completely new industry because it hasn't been regulated yet. When's the last time you heard of a banking or a farming startup? (And if you mention BankSimple, can't you hear them practically begging for mercy from their regulations in the blog posts they publish?) We need to wake up and free the market. A lack of regulations (as has been proven) is the only way to avoid abuse of power.
duffbeer703 16y ago
I think this is a great article as it touches on a perspective on how the world works that is often ignored. Its also great in the sense that the article itself is an example of the phenomena that it is talking about. The analysis of the ICC is great... de-regulating trucking in 1990 allowed the invisible hand to do its thing! But wait a sec... are the trucking companies maintaining the roads like the railroads do?

presidentender 16y ago

I would argue that the present market is certainly not free, but that does not make a free (that is, unregulated) market impossible.

pbz 16y ago
Or desirable.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Uh, The problem is it also doesn't make a free market *well-defined". If in a discussion "free market" has a willo-the-wisp quality in which whatever existences and is undesirable "isn't really a free market", then you haven't shown that "free market" is anything but rhetorical device.

jacoblyles 16y ago

>"I think the lesson to learn here is that there is no such thing as a 'free market'" That's a popular piece of rhetoric, but I don't buy it. Certainly a market with government handouts or regulations that bias the interests of some players over others is less free than a market without such interference. I think we can say that the transportation market was "more free" after competition killing regulation was removed from the trucking industry under the Carter administration, for example[1]. (People forget about Carter's libertarian streak, but libertarians don't. You can also thank Carter for deregulation of air travel[2] and delicious microbrewed beer[3].) Rather than lobbying to bias the market in favor of our preferred people, as you suggest we do, it is perfectly possible to lobby in favor of less special-interest rules. In fact there is a significant minority of people in this country who do just that. We call ourselves "libertarians". [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Carrier_Act_of_1980 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Carrier_Act_of_1980 [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act [3]http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/How-Jimmy-Carter-Saved-Craft-Beer-1766 http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/How-Jim...

guelo 16y ago
Yea that's been working out really well. /sarcasm
joe_the_user 16y ago
"That's a popular piece of rhetoric, but I don't buy it. Certainly a market with government handouts or regulations that bias the interests of some players over others is less free than a market without such interference." Really? What about a market in which a private entity behaves similarly or worse? The British East India company, for example, literally owned a country. With only the actions of a "private" entity, India's market were open primarily to ... British goods. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India ("During the period, 1780–1860, India changed from being an exporter of processed goods for which it received payment in bullion, to being an exporter of raw materials and a buyer of manufactured goods." ) What I've said to the libertarians here is "when everything is private, I will invest in the tanks, I think they'll be a profit center..."

num1 16y ago

I think the lesson to learn here is that free markets require maintenance and defending. A free market is by its very definition the natural state of affairs. In not only the modern industrial state, but every state America has known, we have added regulation upon regulation to the system to the point that the only way to be an entrepreneur is to create a completely new industry because it hasn't been regulated yet. When's the last time you heard of a banking or a farming startup? (And if you mention BankSimple, can't you hear them practically begging for mercy from their regulations in the blog posts they publish?) We need to wake up and free the market. A lack of regulations (as has been proven) is the only way to avoid abuse of power.

duffbeer703 16y ago

I think this is a great article as it touches on a perspective on how the world works that is often ignored. Its also great in the sense that the article itself is an example of the phenomena that it is talking about. The analysis of the ICC is great... de-regulating trucking in 1990 allowed the invisible hand to do its thing! But wait a sec... are the trucking companies maintaining the roads like the railroads do?