10 ms·

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care a

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot always be substantiated with hard evidence? Do we really want to condition young minds to see a constant surveillance as a kind of benevolent security blanket? And that's not even all that's at stake. The Overton window is shrinking as it is, and academia has adopted a censorious and puritanical orthodoxy. Classes benefit a great deal from the students who care enough to challenge what is presented as de facto truth, but I'm inclined to believe that this will give a basis to silence that behavior. Looking back on my own experiences, would I have felt comfortable speaking out against teachers if I knew I was under surveillance? I'm not so sure. But in most cases, even the teachers themselves often told me that they were happy to have somebody engage them meaningfully. But some weren't so happy, and those are the ones that have a new channel for abuse. And what about the teachers? Some of the best teachers I had would've been fired for what they taught, or allowed students to do. Allowing controversial class discussions, sometimes among students bordering too young to handle the subject matter. Doing a dangerous chemistry or physics demonstration that bends the rules slightly. A classroom led by a cheeky teacher was often ruined by the superintendent or principal standing in the doorway. Now they're in the doorway 24/7.

throwayEngineer 7y ago
As a kid who was bullied, i would have loved to have evidence. Totally insane to think that "privacy" should take priority over safety. This doesn't change freedom, this only stops injustices. This sounds like a Luddite's take on modern security cameras.
panzagl 7y ago
No one actually watches the video, unless something happens. And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28 kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be beasts to each other at recess.
- everdrive 7y ago
  If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!
  - panzagl 7y ago
    But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could capture the same information by being more observant.
    - everdrive 7y ago
      A wise teacher can offer a bit more dignity by choosing what they notice and draw attention to, or not.
      - skybrian 7y ago
        Perhaps the same is true when choosing how to use video recordings?
        everdrive 7y ago
        Maybe. They're more ubiquitous, and almost certainly available to more parties. Can I really exercise my own judgement when my boss can watch the tape too?
        EpicEng 7y ago
        My wife is a teacher and I promise you that principals don't want to have to manage their teacher's classes. They only step in when required or asked to.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
maxden 7y ago
I agree, it is normalizing surveillance such that the kids grow up expecting there to be camera everywhere and accepting it.
- vraivroo 7y ago
  What's wrong with that though?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bilbo0s 7y ago
>There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched... Maybe adults do, but I seriously doubt children do. Maybe some child dev experts on HN could chime in here, but my understanding was that brain development is not complete until well after 18 years in humans. Not only that, but the ability to self regulate is particularly compromised in children. Now I could be wrong. And, as I said, I welcome the child dev guys to chime in here, but I think these people are literally recording children who, because of human neurobiology, are unlikely to regulate due to the recording. And I think the people doing the recording know that.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Children know to hide behavior from disapproving adults: they're not as stupid or underdeveloped as you think they are.
- losteric 7y ago
  Kids are naive, not stupid. They will ignore the camera until someone gets caught... from then on Big Brother will be lurking in the shadows of their mind. I grew up in an environment like that, my paranoid parents were a fan of security cameras all over the house because we grew up in a "risky" area. The cameras definitely led to a feeling of being mentally caged in, always being watched and worried about doing something wrong. The Black Mirror "Arkangel" episode is a good commentary on omnipresent childhood surveillance...
bko 7y ago
> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time. > Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot always be substantiated with hard evidence... Some of the best teachers I had would've been fired for what they taught, or allowed students to do. I think you're romanticizing what goes on in a modern US school. No one is going to go after children for small mischief. They don't go after them now because its just not worth it not because they can't catch them doing petty infractions. As for the teachers, for every great teacher having controversial and important discussions with their students, there are 9 that just roll in a TV to watch a movie about once a week.
- schwap 7y ago
  > Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time. They never said being watched exclusively changes behaviour for the better.
- cgriswald 7y ago
  > As for the teachers, for every great teacher having controversial and important discussions with their students, there are 9 that just roll in a TV to watch a movie about once a week. The 10% are the ones that had the biggest impact on me as a student. They are also the ones most likely to be affected by the cameras. Hell, even in the 1990s, my European History teacher flat out said (paraphrasing), "I'd have to quit if they ever installed a camera in here. It wouldn't even work for measuring how I perform, because even if the students didn't know the cameras were in here, I would know. And it would affect how I teach things just as much as if the principal was sitting in the back row."
kemiller2002 7y ago
I would like to propose another reason as to why I think it's bad. I seriously believe that the constant surveillance of people through their phones is starting to cause problems. It's now awkward to not leave the house without your phone. What if someone needs you? What if you need to reach someone? To feel safe, people need to feel constantly within arms reach of help. Monitoring children this way, is essentially easing them into the same mindset. Someone is always watching what's happening. When they step out into the real world, disconnecting from that is sure to be jarring, and what I really fear is that uneasiness will push more people into believing we need to be under a surveillance state.
nostrademons 7y ago
> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. We definitely know that kids change their behavior when being watched, but most of the time we call that "parenting".
- vraivroo 7y ago
  Exactly. Nobody behaves worse when they know they are being watched.
cwkoss 7y ago
> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Religion is a heck of a thing

throwayEngineer 7y ago

As a kid who was bullied, i would have loved to have evidence. Totally insane to think that "privacy" should take priority over safety. This doesn't change freedom, this only stops injustices. This sounds like a Luddite's take on modern security cameras.

panzagl 7y ago

No one actually watches the video, unless something happens. And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28 kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be beasts to each other at recess.

everdrive 7y ago
If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!
- panzagl 7y ago
  But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could capture the same information by being more observant.
  - everdrive 7y ago
    A wise teacher can offer a bit more dignity by choosing what they notice and draw attention to, or not.
    - skybrian 7y ago
      Perhaps the same is true when choosing how to use video recordings?
      - everdrive 7y ago
        Maybe. They're more ubiquitous, and almost certainly available to more parties. Can I really exercise my own judgement when my boss can watch the tape too?
        EpicEng 7y ago
        My wife is a teacher and I promise you that principals don't want to have to manage their teacher's classes. They only step in when required or asked to.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

maxden 7y ago

I agree, it is normalizing surveillance such that the kids grow up expecting there to be camera everywhere and accepting it.

vraivroo 7y ago
What's wrong with that though?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bilbo0s 7y ago

>There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched... Maybe adults do, but I seriously doubt children do. Maybe some child dev experts on HN could chime in here, but my understanding was that brain development is not complete until well after 18 years in humans. Not only that, but the ability to self regulate is particularly compromised in children. Now I could be wrong. And, as I said, I welcome the child dev guys to chime in here, but I think these people are literally recording children who, because of human neurobiology, are unlikely to regulate due to the recording. And I think the people doing the recording know that.

saagarjha 7y ago
Children know to hide behavior from disapproving adults: they're not as stupid or underdeveloped as you think they are.
losteric 7y ago
Kids are naive, not stupid. They will ignore the camera until someone gets caught... from then on Big Brother will be lurking in the shadows of their mind. I grew up in an environment like that, my paranoid parents were a fan of security cameras all over the house because we grew up in a "risky" area. The cameras definitely led to a feeling of being mentally caged in, always being watched and worried about doing something wrong. The Black Mirror "Arkangel" episode is a good commentary on omnipresent childhood surveillance...

bko 7y ago

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time. > Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot always be substantiated with hard evidence... Some of the best teachers I had would've been fired for what they taught, or allowed students to do. I think you're romanticizing what goes on in a modern US school. No one is going to go after children for small mischief. They don't go after them now because its just not worth it not because they can't catch them doing petty infractions. As for the teachers, for every great teacher having controversial and important discussions with their students, there are 9 that just roll in a TV to watch a movie about once a week.

schwap 7y ago
> Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time. They never said being watched exclusively changes behaviour for the better.
cgriswald 7y ago
> As for the teachers, for every great teacher having controversial and important discussions with their students, there are 9 that just roll in a TV to watch a movie about once a week. The 10% are the ones that had the biggest impact on me as a student. They are also the ones most likely to be affected by the cameras. Hell, even in the 1990s, my European History teacher flat out said (paraphrasing), "I'd have to quit if they ever installed a camera in here. It wouldn't even work for measuring how I perform, because even if the students didn't know the cameras were in here, I would know. And it would affect how I teach things just as much as if the principal was sitting in the back row."

kemiller2002 7y ago

I would like to propose another reason as to why I think it's bad. I seriously believe that the constant surveillance of people through their phones is starting to cause problems. It's now awkward to not leave the house without your phone. What if someone needs you? What if you need to reach someone? To feel safe, people need to feel constantly within arms reach of help. Monitoring children this way, is essentially easing them into the same mindset. Someone is always watching what's happening. When they step out into the real world, disconnecting from that is sure to be jarring, and what I really fear is that uneasiness will push more people into believing we need to be under a surveillance state.

nostrademons 7y ago

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. We definitely know that kids change their behavior when being watched, but most of the time we call that "parenting".

vraivroo 7y ago
Exactly. Nobody behaves worse when they know they are being watched.

cwkoss 7y ago

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Religion is a heck of a thing