3 ms·

Especially in Europe, it's very clear that in tech, there's a huge unfair bias for women. I mean look at the speaker lineups of conferences and management / tec

Especially in Europe, it's very clear that in tech, there's a huge unfair bias for women. I mean look at the speaker lineups of conferences and management / tech teams of large tech organizations. It's hard to spot a single man among the ranks. https://corporate.zalando.com/sites/default/files/media-download/Zalando-SE_annual_report_2018.pdf https://corporate.zalando.com/sites/default/files/media-down... https://www.curry-on.org/2019/ https://www.curry-on.org/2019/

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
xnHA 7y ago
It is better in the garbage collection business in Munich. Witness two women in bureaucrat positions and a man actually collecting the garbage: https://www.awm-muenchen.de/ueber-uns/struktur/werkleitung.html https://www.awm-muenchen.de/ueber-uns/struktur/werkleitung.h... This is Europe now.
doersino 7y ago
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but for anyone who didn't check out the links: Zalando: > On top of this improved focus, we remain committed to increasing female leadership – our target is to have 25% of positions at the first level and 30% at the second level below the Management Board filled by women by 2022 (currently 11% and 16% respectively). Curry On: 2/4 keynote speakers are men, 11/12 invited speakers are men, 29/32 presentations are held by men (as far as I can tell based on names and pictures).
- the-dude 7y ago
  I assume it is a typo. The comment is inconsistent.
the-dude 7y ago
Is there a bias, or might they not be interested in the fields?
- skocznymroczny 7y ago
  Even if they're not interested in the fields, they're definitely interested in well-paid jobs in air-conditioned offices.
  - the-dude 7y ago
    Are you sure? The impression I get in NL is that women don't particular like to work too much : they favor 32 over 40 hrs. I even overheard a young woman say she went to 24 hrs ( from 32 hrs ), because 'why not?', they could afford it. My impression is women are less ambitious and value quality of life much more than men ( I don't blame them, I try to do as little as possible as well ).
    - redleader9345 7y ago
      Can't one be ambitious about not getting overworked?
      - mises 7y ago
        Since when is 40hrs/wk overworked? I work significantly more than that and don't consider myself overworked.
      - losvedir 7y ago
        Sure, if one can be lazy about doing recreational activities.
    - silveroriole 7y ago
      My perception is that if a man works less than full time, people think he must be a go-getter who isn’t afraid to ask his boss for it, must be earning a lot already, etc. It’s seen as an enviable position to be in. When women work less than full time they tend to be called “unambitious”.
krageon 7y ago
I've been working in the EU for some time, and I have A. Not seen evidence of these policies B. Continued to note an overwhelming majority of my colleagues (90+%) is male. When I go to conferences and look at management/tech teams, I see the opposite of what you are talking about: Very few women (or no women). I would like to know some of these woman-friendly conferences that you go to so I can actually attend, it might be nice.
roenxi 7y ago
I assume the sociologists do actually ask a lot more questions and they simply don't filter through to tech boards, but the really interesting ones seem to me to be: * Are average women making a more rational decisions than average men in avoiding these fields? * Is there a difference in how much pain average men and women will tolerate before they leave? Ie, is the average man desperate to achieve a certain type of success, leading to increased competitiveness? I think we all know that leadership positions in STEM companies and academia (and beyond) tend to skew male, the entry level incentives skew female and that females are the target of lots of unwanted male attention. This obviously implies a bias, because half the apt are going to be female. However the efforts to correct this bias don't seem to have done their due diligence to figure out what the cause is; because at the moment the entry level incentives are clearly unfair in and of themselves. Two wrongs don't make Right, they make Very Wrong - it is a bad idea to correct bias by introducing more biases. Also, my experience in the mining industry makes me think that these incentives aren't likely to work because the cause of the bias is not concern about monetary compensation. I'll spare the crowd my personal theories.
- shawnz 7y ago
  > However the efforts to correct this bias don't seem to have done their due diligence to figure out what the cause is; because at the moment the entry level incentives are clearly unfair in and of themselves. Two wrongs don't make Right, they make Very Wrong - it is a bad idea to correct bias by introducing more biases. What if the cause is due to the existing precedent? Then wouldn't positive discrimination be an effective solution?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

xnHA 7y ago

It is better in the garbage collection business in Munich. Witness two women in bureaucrat positions and a man actually collecting the garbage: https://www.awm-muenchen.de/ueber-uns/struktur/werkleitung.html https://www.awm-muenchen.de/ueber-uns/struktur/werkleitung.h... This is Europe now.

doersino 7y ago

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but for anyone who didn't check out the links: Zalando: > On top of this improved focus, we remain committed to increasing female leadership – our target is to have 25% of positions at the first level and 30% at the second level below the Management Board filled by women by 2022 (currently 11% and 16% respectively). Curry On: 2/4 keynote speakers are men, 11/12 invited speakers are men, 29/32 presentations are held by men (as far as I can tell based on names and pictures).

the-dude 7y ago
I assume it is a typo. The comment is inconsistent.

the-dude 7y ago

Is there a bias, or might they not be interested in the fields?

skocznymroczny 7y ago
Even if they're not interested in the fields, they're definitely interested in well-paid jobs in air-conditioned offices.
- the-dude 7y ago
  Are you sure? The impression I get in NL is that women don't particular like to work too much : they favor 32 over 40 hrs. I even overheard a young woman say she went to 24 hrs ( from 32 hrs ), because 'why not?', they could afford it. My impression is women are less ambitious and value quality of life much more than men ( I don't blame them, I try to do as little as possible as well ).
  - redleader9345 7y ago
    Can't one be ambitious about not getting overworked?
    - mises 7y ago
      Since when is 40hrs/wk overworked? I work significantly more than that and don't consider myself overworked.
    - losvedir 7y ago
      Sure, if one can be lazy about doing recreational activities.
  - silveroriole 7y ago
    My perception is that if a man works less than full time, people think he must be a go-getter who isn’t afraid to ask his boss for it, must be earning a lot already, etc. It’s seen as an enviable position to be in. When women work less than full time they tend to be called “unambitious”.

krageon 7y ago

I've been working in the EU for some time, and I have A. Not seen evidence of these policies B. Continued to note an overwhelming majority of my colleagues (90+%) is male. When I go to conferences and look at management/tech teams, I see the opposite of what you are talking about: Very few women (or no women). I would like to know some of these woman-friendly conferences that you go to so I can actually attend, it might be nice.

roenxi 7y ago

I assume the sociologists do actually ask a lot more questions and they simply don't filter through to tech boards, but the really interesting ones seem to me to be: * Are average women making a more rational decisions than average men in avoiding these fields? * Is there a difference in how much pain average men and women will tolerate before they leave? Ie, is the average man desperate to achieve a certain type of success, leading to increased competitiveness? I think we all know that leadership positions in STEM companies and academia (and beyond) tend to skew male, the entry level incentives skew female and that females are the target of lots of unwanted male attention. This obviously implies a bias, because half the apt are going to be female. However the efforts to correct this bias don't seem to have done their due diligence to figure out what the cause is; because at the moment the entry level incentives are clearly unfair in and of themselves. Two wrongs don't make Right, they make Very Wrong - it is a bad idea to correct bias by introducing more biases. Also, my experience in the mining industry makes me think that these incentives aren't likely to work because the cause of the bias is not concern about monetary compensation. I'll spare the crowd my personal theories.

shawnz 7y ago
> However the efforts to correct this bias don't seem to have done their due diligence to figure out what the cause is; because at the moment the entry level incentives are clearly unfair in and of themselves. Two wrongs don't make Right, they make Very Wrong - it is a bad idea to correct bias by introducing more biases. What if the cause is due to the existing precedent? Then wouldn't positive discrimination be an effective solution?