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This is the №1 reason I choose Android - nobody can dictate what apps I can install. I always knew you can only install apps from the store on Apple devices an

This is the №1 reason I choose Android - nobody can dictate what apps I can install. I always knew you can only install apps from the store on Apple devices and strongly disliked this (I already use some apps which even Google won't approve, e.g. an open-source YouTube downloader only available on GitHub) but once I've found out you can't get some apps (and books) in particular countries (e.g. a book I wanted was only available in the US store) and a government can ban something from the store I facepalmed.

zaphirplane 7y ago
A few stories down today sis Chinese boarder guards installing presumably surveillance apps on android phones but not on Apple The trade offs are far from simplistic
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Although I have nothing illegal there, I would rather travel without a phone than handle my real phone to anybody.
- air7 7y ago
  Anarchy vs. BDFL
- Crinus 7y ago
  You can always go to China without a phone or with a throwaway phone (if you really must). You cannot install applications on your locked down iOS device regardless if you go to China or not and the people who go to China are a much smaller number than the people who own a smartphone.
  - zaphirplane 7y ago
    The bigger picture is more than a government installing apps on your phone. The issue is someone other than you can install apps with unlimited access on your android phone. Foreign government, your government, your employer, a work colleague, a competitor, your spouse ... the list goes on The security and privacy on an iPhone is greater and comes at a flexibility factor.
    - Crinus 7y ago
      These apps are not installed by themselves, someone with physical access to the phone is installing them (if we include remote installs then anything that autoupdates - including iPhone - can also install software). And it isn't a matter of flexibility, it is a matter of utility: others not being able to take your phone from you and install apps also means you not being able to do it either.
arijun 7y ago
An interesting contrast is the story on the front page about Chinese border patrol installing spyware [1]. There, the fact that every app needs to be signed by Apple meant that the surveillance app could only be installed on Android phones. So I guess, yes, nobody can dictate what apps you can install, but also nobody can dictate what apps others can install. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20342063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20342063
- ubersync 7y ago
  I am sure the chinese government can twist Apple's arm to sign their malware. So it is not any better.
  - ubersync 7y ago
    Lol, fanboys downvoting my comment, even though it is totally possible. Even my last comment 28 days ago, which was incidentally against Apple but factually true, was also downvoted. Looks like hacker news is being plagued with fanboys who can't take any valid criticism of their dear Apple Inc. Edit: when I wrote this comment, my original comment was at -4 points.
    - GoofballJones 7y ago
      It’s not the same. These are border guards easily putting spyware on Android phones, since it’s a feature of Android (to load programs). With iOS, you’d have to jailbreak it first, which isn’t a trivial thing to do “while you wait” at the border. That’s all.
      - ubersync 7y ago
        You don't need to jailbreak if you have an Apple signed App, which the Chinese Govt. can theoretically force Apple to provide.
        arcticbull 7y ago
VvR-Ox 7y ago
It doesn't really matter what you choose - you won't get the choice you really want in our world (at least not that fast and it won't be as shiny and exciting as the advertised stuff we can buy already). One should consider smartphones unsafe devices and not trust important data to them. Even most computers aren't really safe devices. With a lot of effort you can minimize risks (e.g. using core/libreboot, full disc encryption, live OSes etc.) but you'll never find a way to absolute security and privacy. The discussion if Android or iOS is safer doesn't really matter that much in my opinion. I choose iOS because of their constraints. The pseudo-freedom Android gave me wasn't enough or that useful that I'd consider using that system again so soon. Also I like the fact that I can use an iDevice for a longer period including new OS- and security- updates. (just my personal opinion without any recommendation)
meerita 7y ago
Android is not safe from the same problems. Google also shows all gov's demands for information.
hpen 7y ago
In practice I just haven't found this to be an issue. It seems to be only obscure, possibly illegal? apps like the youtube app you mentioned. I would actually love to hear what apps you guys love but can't get on iOS
varjag 7y ago
Google Play Store also complies with government requests.
mayankkaizen 7y ago
Can someone point to which OS youtube downloader OP is referring to?
- 0x38B 7y ago
  Not the OP, after some quick searching found this: https://github.com/HaarigerHarald/android-youtubeExtractor https://github.com/HaarigerHarald/android-youtubeExtractor Not open source, but "YouTube Downloader" (thread on XDA [1]) has worked well for me. 1: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2137743 https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2137743 Note that on iOS you can download videos from YouTube using youtube-dl (installed in Pythonista). With Pythonista's share sheet extension, it's quite convenient.
bibyte 7y ago
I agree. Android is not without it's problems but at least I can run my own code on it without jumping through hoops.
dvhh 7y ago
Remember that most users woudl gladly exchange their freedom to do so for a safer, more controlled environment. And that some of them want a phone that can run some application ( where android is a PDA that can make some phone call )
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
  - Tomte 7y ago
    What Ben Franklin Really Said: https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said#.Uu6o5vldXAE https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said#.U...
  - bb123 7y ago
    This is silly argument to make here. The vast majority of users aren't using their phones to whistleblow on some government scheme or a plot by the new world order. They are running their businesses and lives on these things. And for those people the ability to run some .apk from a sketchy website is worth less than nothing to them, but the safety of being protected from attack is. Realise that you are not the kind of user these phones are designed for. You are a power user who wants power user features. That is fine, but don't condemn people who are just using their phones as tools.
    - wor3q 7y ago
      Unless an app essential to their business gets taken down from an app store, with no way around that.
    - enriquto 7y ago
      > The vast majority of users aren't using their phones to whistleblow on some government scheme But some of them are, and it is essential for a healthy society that this is always possible for them and for anybody who needs to.
hellofunk 7y ago
Your number one reason is also my number one reason, for the exact opposite reason. I don’t want anyone to be able to get their innocent looking code into my phone without some extra effort
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  I totally support the idea that Apple/Google/whatever should check apps published in their stores thoroughly yet a user should be able to install an app manually or via a 3rd-party store if they know what are they doing.
- Crinus 7y ago
  > anyone This "anyone" is you as only you are responsible for the applications you install in your own devices. People need to learn personal responsibility for the stuff they install instead of enabling OS vendors to control what everyone can do with their devices in the name of protecting them by themselves.
  - pdimitar 7y ago
    > People need to learn personal responsibility Yeah they do but from what I've seen in my life, we're centuries or millennia away from the average person being like that. So the mobile OS vendors adapt to the average human. It's only natural.
- DavideNL 7y ago
  I agree with you, which is why there are many more viruses/malware in Android vs iOS. However my issue with iOS is, that people don't have the freedom to choose whether or not they want to be protected by this "walled garden". Currently, you cannot opt-out, and the side effect is that Apple limits our freedom to choose to, for example, set Firefox as the default browser. Or set startpage.com as the default search engine in Safari. etc. etc. I don't understand how a single company is allowed to have so much power to decide/enforce upon us what we may and may not do with our devices. And since it's an oligopoly (Apple or Google), we don't have any other alternatives.
aloer 7y ago
In terms of books that is very much a non Apple issue. Every country can (and does?) ban some books from publication. Whether it’s political or „save the children“, it’s a normal government process and your chosen platform, digital or paper, is irrelevant. Picking out Apple for book censorship is wrong. Apps on the other hand you are totally right about. This censorship exists with app stores only. But in practical terms, is there really a difference between side loading iOS apps or installing android apps from binary? If anything I would prefer the open source nature of side loading
- drclau 7y ago
  Note that Apple's Books app works with books that were not purchased from Apple. You can simply send an epub file to Books app via the standard sharing functionality, from any other app. I assume it is allowed because it does not pose a security threat to the device, nor user, as opposed to allowing apps from outside the Apple Store. Edit: You can try it with Peter Watts' Blindsight ;). EPub download link is in the header: https://rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm https://rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  > Every country can (and does?) ban some books from publication... Picking out Apple for book censorship is wrong. That's Apple who has made this possible. If it was doing no distinction between countries (e.g. Google seemingly has just one Play store globally) then it would be not a party to blame. By the way the book I wanted was free and not on any sensitive subject. Some kind of science fiction. I've just stumbled upon a Twitter post saying there is a curious new scifi book available for free in Apple store, so I've taken my wife's iPad and tried to get it but it said it was only available in the US store (we live in Europe).
  - callahad 7y ago
    Fwiw, Google Play does have regional stores. For example, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hutchison3g.planet3 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hutchison3... is only available in the UK store.
AFascistWorld 7y ago
And leak all your available data in the instant you open the app.
cageface 7y ago
I used Android for this reason for many years and I still think Apple's model poses an extremely serious threat to the freedom of the internet. But as Google's data mining practices have become increasingly invasive I've also become a lot less enthusiastic about using Android phones. I suppose I should probably run one of the stripped down Android variants that removes all that tracking but I also need a reliable phone that doesn't require hours of fiddling.
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Indeed I use an open-source stripped down Android variant. It only required an hour of fiddling one time (to learn how to, flash it and set everything up the way you do on a new phone), works as breeze since then.
  - dvdbloc 7y ago
    On which phone if you don’t mind me asking. My experience has been on several phones that doing this is rather buggy and just a big headache.
    - thekyle 7y ago
      I use Lineage OS with microG on my OnePlus 3. It works just as well as Oxygen OS (which shipped with the phone). Minor and major upgrades both happen in place so no need to ever reinstall. However, major version upgrades do require you to flash an image from the Lineage website.
- RealStickman 7y ago
  It probably easiest to look for a phone that supports lineageos and install its fork, lineageos for microg on your phone. That way you can continue to use apps like WhatsApp that require Google Play.
  - snaky 7y ago
    Lineage for MicroG also provides "F-Droid Privileged Extension", which allows F-Droid to install and update apps without the need of user interaction or the unsafe "Unknown sources" option. https://lineage.microg.org/#faq https://lineage.microg.org/#faq
RKearney 7y ago
> I always knew you can only install apps from the store on Apple devices This couldn't be further from the truth. At least take the time to understand how the various platforms function before spewing inaccurate statements about them. You've been able to side load apps on iOS since the App Store existed. The App Store has never been the "only" way to install apps.
- larrik 7y ago
  Oh? Outside of a developer certificate or jailbreaking, how does one sideload apps on iOS?

zaphirplane 7y ago

A few stories down today sis Chinese boarder guards installing presumably surveillance apps on android phones but not on Apple The trade offs are far from simplistic

qwerty456127 7y ago
Although I have nothing illegal there, I would rather travel without a phone than handle my real phone to anybody.
air7 7y ago
Anarchy vs. BDFL
Crinus 7y ago
You can always go to China without a phone or with a throwaway phone (if you really must). You cannot install applications on your locked down iOS device regardless if you go to China or not and the people who go to China are a much smaller number than the people who own a smartphone.
- zaphirplane 7y ago
  The bigger picture is more than a government installing apps on your phone. The issue is someone other than you can install apps with unlimited access on your android phone. Foreign government, your government, your employer, a work colleague, a competitor, your spouse ... the list goes on The security and privacy on an iPhone is greater and comes at a flexibility factor.
  - Crinus 7y ago
    These apps are not installed by themselves, someone with physical access to the phone is installing them (if we include remote installs then anything that autoupdates - including iPhone - can also install software). And it isn't a matter of flexibility, it is a matter of utility: others not being able to take your phone from you and install apps also means you not being able to do it either.

arijun 7y ago

An interesting contrast is the story on the front page about Chinese border patrol installing spyware [1]. There, the fact that every app needs to be signed by Apple meant that the surveillance app could only be installed on Android phones. So I guess, yes, nobody can dictate what apps you can install, but also nobody can dictate what apps others can install. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20342063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20342063

ubersync 7y ago
I am sure the chinese government can twist Apple's arm to sign their malware. So it is not any better.
- ubersync 7y ago
  Lol, fanboys downvoting my comment, even though it is totally possible. Even my last comment 28 days ago, which was incidentally against Apple but factually true, was also downvoted. Looks like hacker news is being plagued with fanboys who can't take any valid criticism of their dear Apple Inc. Edit: when I wrote this comment, my original comment was at -4 points.
  - GoofballJones 7y ago
    It’s not the same. These are border guards easily putting spyware on Android phones, since it’s a feature of Android (to load programs). With iOS, you’d have to jailbreak it first, which isn’t a trivial thing to do “while you wait” at the border. That’s all.
    - ubersync 7y ago
      You don't need to jailbreak if you have an Apple signed App, which the Chinese Govt. can theoretically force Apple to provide.
      - arcticbull 7y ago

VvR-Ox 7y ago

It doesn't really matter what you choose - you won't get the choice you really want in our world (at least not that fast and it won't be as shiny and exciting as the advertised stuff we can buy already). One should consider smartphones unsafe devices and not trust important data to them. Even most computers aren't really safe devices. With a lot of effort you can minimize risks (e.g. using core/libreboot, full disc encryption, live OSes etc.) but you'll never find a way to absolute security and privacy. The discussion if Android or iOS is safer doesn't really matter that much in my opinion. I choose iOS because of their constraints. The pseudo-freedom Android gave me wasn't enough or that useful that I'd consider using that system again so soon. Also I like the fact that I can use an iDevice for a longer period including new OS- and security- updates. (just my personal opinion without any recommendation)

meerita 7y ago

Android is not safe from the same problems. Google also shows all gov's demands for information.

hpen 7y ago

In practice I just haven't found this to be an issue. It seems to be only obscure, possibly illegal? apps like the youtube app you mentioned. I would actually love to hear what apps you guys love but can't get on iOS

varjag 7y ago

Google Play Store also complies with government requests.

mayankkaizen 7y ago

Can someone point to which OS youtube downloader OP is referring to?

0x38B 7y ago
Not the OP, after some quick searching found this: https://github.com/HaarigerHarald/android-youtubeExtractor https://github.com/HaarigerHarald/android-youtubeExtractor Not open source, but "YouTube Downloader" (thread on XDA [1]) has worked well for me. 1: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2137743 https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2137743 Note that on iOS you can download videos from YouTube using youtube-dl (installed in Pythonista). With Pythonista's share sheet extension, it's quite convenient.

bibyte 7y ago

I agree. Android is not without it's problems but at least I can run my own code on it without jumping through hoops.

dvhh 7y ago

Remember that most users woudl gladly exchange their freedom to do so for a safer, more controlled environment. And that some of them want a phone that can run some application ( where android is a PDA that can make some phone call )

soulofmischief 7y ago
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
- Tomte 7y ago
  What Ben Franklin Really Said: https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said#.Uu6o5vldXAE https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said#.U...
- bb123 7y ago
  This is silly argument to make here. The vast majority of users aren't using their phones to whistleblow on some government scheme or a plot by the new world order. They are running their businesses and lives on these things. And for those people the ability to run some .apk from a sketchy website is worth less than nothing to them, but the safety of being protected from attack is. Realise that you are not the kind of user these phones are designed for. You are a power user who wants power user features. That is fine, but don't condemn people who are just using their phones as tools.
  - wor3q 7y ago
    Unless an app essential to their business gets taken down from an app store, with no way around that.
  - enriquto 7y ago
    > The vast majority of users aren't using their phones to whistleblow on some government scheme But some of them are, and it is essential for a healthy society that this is always possible for them and for anybody who needs to.

hellofunk 7y ago

Your number one reason is also my number one reason, for the exact opposite reason. I don’t want anyone to be able to get their innocent looking code into my phone without some extra effort

qwerty456127 7y ago
I totally support the idea that Apple/Google/whatever should check apps published in their stores thoroughly yet a user should be able to install an app manually or via a 3rd-party store if they know what are they doing.
Crinus 7y ago
> anyone This "anyone" is you as only you are responsible for the applications you install in your own devices. People need to learn personal responsibility for the stuff they install instead of enabling OS vendors to control what everyone can do with their devices in the name of protecting them by themselves.
- pdimitar 7y ago
  > People need to learn personal responsibility Yeah they do but from what I've seen in my life, we're centuries or millennia away from the average person being like that. So the mobile OS vendors adapt to the average human. It's only natural.
DavideNL 7y ago
I agree with you, which is why there are many more viruses/malware in Android vs iOS. However my issue with iOS is, that people don't have the freedom to choose whether or not they want to be protected by this "walled garden". Currently, you cannot opt-out, and the side effect is that Apple limits our freedom to choose to, for example, set Firefox as the default browser. Or set startpage.com as the default search engine in Safari. etc. etc. I don't understand how a single company is allowed to have so much power to decide/enforce upon us what we may and may not do with our devices. And since it's an oligopoly (Apple or Google), we don't have any other alternatives.

aloer 7y ago

In terms of books that is very much a non Apple issue. Every country can (and does?) ban some books from publication. Whether it’s political or „save the children“, it’s a normal government process and your chosen platform, digital or paper, is irrelevant. Picking out Apple for book censorship is wrong. Apps on the other hand you are totally right about. This censorship exists with app stores only. But in practical terms, is there really a difference between side loading iOS apps or installing android apps from binary? If anything I would prefer the open source nature of side loading

drclau 7y ago
Note that Apple's Books app works with books that were not purchased from Apple. You can simply send an epub file to Books app via the standard sharing functionality, from any other app. I assume it is allowed because it does not pose a security threat to the device, nor user, as opposed to allowing apps from outside the Apple Store. Edit: You can try it with Peter Watts' Blindsight ;). EPub download link is in the header: https://rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm https://rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm
qwerty456127 7y ago
> Every country can (and does?) ban some books from publication... Picking out Apple for book censorship is wrong. That's Apple who has made this possible. If it was doing no distinction between countries (e.g. Google seemingly has just one Play store globally) then it would be not a party to blame. By the way the book I wanted was free and not on any sensitive subject. Some kind of science fiction. I've just stumbled upon a Twitter post saying there is a curious new scifi book available for free in Apple store, so I've taken my wife's iPad and tried to get it but it said it was only available in the US store (we live in Europe).
- callahad 7y ago
  Fwiw, Google Play does have regional stores. For example, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hutchison3g.planet3 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hutchison3... is only available in the UK store.

AFascistWorld 7y ago

And leak all your available data in the instant you open the app.

cageface 7y ago

I used Android for this reason for many years and I still think Apple's model poses an extremely serious threat to the freedom of the internet. But as Google's data mining practices have become increasingly invasive I've also become a lot less enthusiastic about using Android phones. I suppose I should probably run one of the stripped down Android variants that removes all that tracking but I also need a reliable phone that doesn't require hours of fiddling.

qwerty456127 7y ago
Indeed I use an open-source stripped down Android variant. It only required an hour of fiddling one time (to learn how to, flash it and set everything up the way you do on a new phone), works as breeze since then.
- dvdbloc 7y ago
  On which phone if you don’t mind me asking. My experience has been on several phones that doing this is rather buggy and just a big headache.
  - thekyle 7y ago
    I use Lineage OS with microG on my OnePlus 3. It works just as well as Oxygen OS (which shipped with the phone). Minor and major upgrades both happen in place so no need to ever reinstall. However, major version upgrades do require you to flash an image from the Lineage website.
RealStickman 7y ago
It probably easiest to look for a phone that supports lineageos and install its fork, lineageos for microg on your phone. That way you can continue to use apps like WhatsApp that require Google Play.
- snaky 7y ago
  Lineage for MicroG also provides "F-Droid Privileged Extension", which allows F-Droid to install and update apps without the need of user interaction or the unsafe "Unknown sources" option. https://lineage.microg.org/#faq https://lineage.microg.org/#faq

RKearney 7y ago

> I always knew you can only install apps from the store on Apple devices This couldn't be further from the truth. At least take the time to understand how the various platforms function before spewing inaccurate statements about them. You've been able to side load apps on iOS since the App Store existed. The App Store has never been the "only" way to install apps.

larrik 7y ago
Oh? Outside of a developer certificate or jailbreaking, how does one sideload apps on iOS?