27 ms·

Well, Boeing on the other hand is having trouble building reliable planes.

SilasX 7y ago
Trouble building one of their new models to be reliable. They have several very mature lines that they have no trouble making reliable.
- calyth2018 7y ago
  In terms of quality issues... https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-air-canada-jet-fuel-leak-1.5193550 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-air-canada-jet-fuel-... https://phys.org/news/2019-04-pentagon-boeing-tanker-deliveries-quality.html https://phys.org/news/2019-04-pentagon-boeing-tanker-deliver...
- Breza 7y ago
  This is worth emphasizing. Tesla's detractors would likely give them the benefit of the doubt if Tesla had a track record like Boeing's.
api 7y ago
The underlying cause of both companies' issues is the same, and it's not organizational size and style. It's complexity. Bugs and edge cases grow exponentially, not linearly, with complexity, and both Tesla's cars and the 737 MAX are far more complex than previous products. It's similar to the "featureitis" that causes complex software products and platforms to crumble and die over time. Part of why we keep rewriting the universe in software is the need to repeatedly start over to escape a mountain of accreted complexity in some old system. At some point the cost of rewriting the parts we need is lower than the cost of just maintaining the bloat.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Tesla's cars are a heck of a lot less complex than normal ICE vehicles considering that they lack a transmission and emissions system. Edit: Fanboys, this isn't an insult, it's a statement of fact. An EV simply doesn't have all the additional mechanical, electrical and software complexity that comes with those systems.
  - rkoten 7y ago
    You may be right in that regard, but I would argue that Tesla is bringing a new variable into the equation which is autopilot software. I'm no expert at mechanical engineering but knowing how every major car manufacturer has mastered their transmission and emission systems, and how none of them have a reasonably full-featured autopilot solution, it does look like that variable is (far?) more complex.
  - x38iq84n 7y ago
    They make it up with their level of electronics, sensors, software, battery technology etc.
    - HarryHirsch 7y ago
      But they don't have to add all that electronic hoohah and then construct it in a way that fails! Come on, a car that stops when syslog has exhausted available storage! A car with continuous touchscreen failures in 2019! My GPS was bought in 2008, it has a touchscreen and it spent all its life inside a car, and it is still working, despite GPS rollover! It's troubling that Tesla repeats mistakes that everyone else knows to avoid.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    They’re mechanically less complex, but all of the complexity in a modern automobile is in the sensors and control systems. It’s the same with modern airplanes; they’re not mechanically much more complex than they were 40 years ago, but they have sophisticated fly by wire systems that didn’t exist back then.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Yes, and an EV is lacking two massive groups of those systems because it doesn't have the mechanical systems those electronics control. Edit: Why is this being down-voted? Is it factually incorrect or does it make people uncomfortable?
      - 7y ago
ab_c 7y ago
Boeing's problems had little to do with being a fast-paced startup-like culture. They were outsourcing a lot of their work to India in an attempt to save money. They cared more about the short-term financial savings and cared less about the quality of work.
- mffnbs 7y ago
  I think the point was to cite an opposing case where massive corporations are having issues with production as well.
  - pm90 7y ago
    Well the responders point was that Tesla isn't a massive corporation. Different scenario.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  > They were outsourcing a lot of their work to India in an attempt to save money. That Bloomberg article was highly misleading. The Indian team they cite did NOT work on MCAS and had no role to play in the accidents.
- wahern 7y ago
  FWIW, in another article thread a poster explained that Boeing wasn't strategically outsourcing work to India: > You have got it the other way around. TCS etc don't have that much power over Indian military contracts. Instead Boeing had to comply and open an Indian development center to win those contracts. > I talked to couple of people at the Indian center and they tell me because the center was created due a compulsion and not strategy the quality of work is terrible. Most of them are paid well but have no work to do. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20310924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20310924
cco 7y ago
…because Boeing stopped being the measured and conservative company it was and began to chase profits and cut corners in a bid to undercut competition. ^I think that addition is a more complete and fair sentence.
magduf 7y ago
If you're talking about the 737MAX, there's no evidence to show that plane is unreliable at all. It will very reliably crash shortly after takeoff if there's a problem with the single sensor that controls the MCAS. The problem isn't reliability, it's a fundamental design flaw (the engines being too big for the obsolete airframe design) that was bandaged with a fundamentally flawed software hack that was specifically designed to not have any redundancy and to fail easily.

Trouble building one of their new models to be reliable. They have several very mature lines that they have no trouble making reliable.

calyth2018 7y ago
In terms of quality issues... https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-air-canada-jet-fuel-leak-1.5193550 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-air-canada-jet-fuel-... https://phys.org/news/2019-04-pentagon-boeing-tanker-deliveries-quality.html https://phys.org/news/2019-04-pentagon-boeing-tanker-deliver...
Breza 7y ago
This is worth emphasizing. Tesla's detractors would likely give them the benefit of the doubt if Tesla had a track record like Boeing's.

api 7y ago

The underlying cause of both companies' issues is the same, and it's not organizational size and style. It's complexity. Bugs and edge cases grow exponentially, not linearly, with complexity, and both Tesla's cars and the 737 MAX are far more complex than previous products. It's similar to the "featureitis" that causes complex software products and platforms to crumble and die over time. Part of why we keep rewriting the universe in software is the need to repeatedly start over to escape a mountain of accreted complexity in some old system. At some point the cost of rewriting the parts we need is lower than the cost of just maintaining the bloat.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Tesla's cars are a heck of a lot less complex than normal ICE vehicles considering that they lack a transmission and emissions system. Edit: Fanboys, this isn't an insult, it's a statement of fact. An EV simply doesn't have all the additional mechanical, electrical and software complexity that comes with those systems.
- rkoten 7y ago
  You may be right in that regard, but I would argue that Tesla is bringing a new variable into the equation which is autopilot software. I'm no expert at mechanical engineering but knowing how every major car manufacturer has mastered their transmission and emission systems, and how none of them have a reasonably full-featured autopilot solution, it does look like that variable is (far?) more complex.
- x38iq84n 7y ago
  They make it up with their level of electronics, sensors, software, battery technology etc.
  - HarryHirsch 7y ago
    But they don't have to add all that electronic hoohah and then construct it in a way that fails! Come on, a car that stops when syslog has exhausted available storage! A car with continuous touchscreen failures in 2019! My GPS was bought in 2008, it has a touchscreen and it spent all its life inside a car, and it is still working, despite GPS rollover! It's troubling that Tesla repeats mistakes that everyone else knows to avoid.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  They’re mechanically less complex, but all of the complexity in a modern automobile is in the sensors and control systems. It’s the same with modern airplanes; they’re not mechanically much more complex than they were 40 years ago, but they have sophisticated fly by wire systems that didn’t exist back then.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Yes, and an EV is lacking two massive groups of those systems because it doesn't have the mechanical systems those electronics control. Edit: Why is this being down-voted? Is it factually incorrect or does it make people uncomfortable?
    - 7y ago

ab_c 7y ago

Boeing's problems had little to do with being a fast-paced startup-like culture. They were outsourcing a lot of their work to India in an attempt to save money. They cared more about the short-term financial savings and cared less about the quality of work.

mffnbs 7y ago
I think the point was to cite an opposing case where massive corporations are having issues with production as well.
- pm90 7y ago
  Well the responders point was that Tesla isn't a massive corporation. Different scenario.
Someone1234 7y ago
> They were outsourcing a lot of their work to India in an attempt to save money. That Bloomberg article was highly misleading. The Indian team they cite did NOT work on MCAS and had no role to play in the accidents.
wahern 7y ago
FWIW, in another article thread a poster explained that Boeing wasn't strategically outsourcing work to India: > You have got it the other way around. TCS etc don't have that much power over Indian military contracts. Instead Boeing had to comply and open an Indian development center to win those contracts. > I talked to couple of people at the Indian center and they tell me because the center was created due a compulsion and not strategy the quality of work is terrible. Most of them are paid well but have no work to do. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20310924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20310924

cco 7y ago

…because Boeing stopped being the measured and conservative company it was and began to chase profits and cut corners in a bid to undercut competition. ^I think that addition is a more complete and fair sentence.

magduf 7y ago

If you're talking about the 737MAX, there's no evidence to show that plane is unreliable at all. It will very reliably crash shortly after takeoff if there's a problem with the single sensor that controls the MCAS. The problem isn't reliability, it's a fundamental design flaw (the engines being too big for the obsolete airframe design) that was bandaged with a fundamentally flawed software hack that was specifically designed to not have any redundancy and to fail easily.