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> China was never really not a police state of some sort. Even ancient Imperial China was very much like this. To the point where China basically had no such t

> China was never really not a police state of some sort. Even ancient Imperial China was very much like this. To the point where China basically had no such thing as a legal system in the Western sense! The only kind of dispute resolution was mutually-assured destruction via criminal-like prosecution, basically "If I think you've been trying to cheat me out of something, I can get government goons to beat you up, for theft or whatever." And the government goons often beat up both disputants, for good measure. It's surprising that they even managed to build a halfway-functioning society and keep it going for thousands of years, out of such crudities.

BurningFrog 7y ago
But that's what's interesting about China! It's an alternative civilization! The last 30 years we've seen it develop at a rate that is obviously impossible given the experience of all other countries. Yet this, very different, country does it. It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes, even from systems everyone "knows" shouldn't work.
- pjc50 7y ago
  How is it "obviously impossible"? Most of the developed countries went through rocket growth phases at some point.
  - m4rtink 7y ago
    Yeah, for example Japan had crazy rate of growth for quite a while after WW2.
    - BurningFrog 7y ago
      Japan already was a rich industrialized nation before WW2. China was one of the poorest countries on earth in the 1980s.
      - pjc50 7y ago
        China was a nuclear power since 1964. Part of the reason Nixon had to go there in the first place.
        BurningFrog 7y ago
        True, but you can't eat nuclear bombs. China was a communist military dictatorship. All resources went to the military, while millions starved to death.
      - learc83 7y ago
        >Japan already was a rich industrialized nation before WW2. Look at the previous century and how quickly they modernized. As for other examples of extreme growth this century. Look at South Korea, Taiwan, the USSR etc... China shows a difference in scale due to population size, but it's growth rate was certainly not unprecedented.
        BurningFrog 7y ago
        I actually think it is unprecedented! Not only was China poor on an African level. It had a communist command economy. Compare to how the former Soviet block countries have floundered in the same period, despite starting from a higher economic level. Maybe South Korea and Taiwan are comparable, I don't know. China's rise is still by its size the biggest event in world history the last 30 years. And no one in 1989 would have predicted it.
        learc83 7y ago
        >Maybe South Korea and Taiwan are comparable, I don't know. China's rise is still by its size... That's what I said. Other developing countries have grown just as fast or faster. The difference is that China happens to have the largest population in the world. >Not only was China poor on an African level. It had a communist command economy. Compare to how the former Soviet block countries have floundered in the same period, despite starting from a higher economic level. China voluntarily introduced capitalism in a controlled fashion. Former Soviet countries were the remnants of a collapsed nation. They aren't particularly comparable during the time period you're looking at.
- npongratz 7y ago
  > It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes... I've been lucky not to experience this myself, but I imagine it is bad to experience the "different outcomes" firsthand when the governance system -- novel as it might appear from a distance -- has foundations in violent suppression of individual freedom.
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    Of course. Then again, when some lunatic American colonists tried an alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil, it worked out surprisingly well. I guess what I most of all am arguing against is unified world government.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      > alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil Kind of ridiculous hyperbole here; there may have been the usual establishment bootlickers saying that, but the US was hardly the first Republic in the world.
    - tomatocracy 7y ago
      Ironically, one of the most controversial parts of the Annapolis Convention (which came up with the current US constitution after it was decided that the articles of confederation used since before independence didn't work) was the question of whether an effectively national government/republic over an area as large as the then 13 states was actually possible to operate as a democracy.
    - 18pfsmt 7y ago
      I think most reasonable people agree with the idea of pluralism, and benefit to diverse approaches to governance. However, I think your original take ignores the fact that China has stood on the shoulders of Western liberalism and the 20th century innovation it has produced. IP theft and mercantile trade policies can only work when existing alongside an innovative and free enterprise system which they can exploit for unilateral benefit.
    - 7y ago
gowld 7y ago
Why is it surprising? Maybe the Chinese have discovered the only way to build a lasting civilization that doesn't bomb itself into oblivion every century like Europe does.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  That's ignorant. The Taiping Rebellion was comparable in death toll to the world wars, despite the technology involved being significantly more primitive. No poison gas, no aerial strategic bombing, no blitzkrieg, dive bombers or machine guns. But 20-70 million people dead nevertheless.

BurningFrog 7y ago

But that's what's interesting about China! It's an alternative civilization! The last 30 years we've seen it develop at a rate that is obviously impossible given the experience of all other countries. Yet this, very different, country does it. It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes, even from systems everyone "knows" shouldn't work.

pjc50 7y ago
How is it "obviously impossible"? Most of the developed countries went through rocket growth phases at some point.
- m4rtink 7y ago
  Yeah, for example Japan had crazy rate of growth for quite a while after WW2.
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    Japan already was a rich industrialized nation before WW2. China was one of the poorest countries on earth in the 1980s.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      China was a nuclear power since 1964. Part of the reason Nixon had to go there in the first place.
      - BurningFrog 7y ago
        True, but you can't eat nuclear bombs. China was a communist military dictatorship. All resources went to the military, while millions starved to death.
    - learc83 7y ago
      >Japan already was a rich industrialized nation before WW2. Look at the previous century and how quickly they modernized. As for other examples of extreme growth this century. Look at South Korea, Taiwan, the USSR etc... China shows a difference in scale due to population size, but it's growth rate was certainly not unprecedented.
      - BurningFrog 7y ago
        I actually think it is unprecedented! Not only was China poor on an African level. It had a communist command economy. Compare to how the former Soviet block countries have floundered in the same period, despite starting from a higher economic level. Maybe South Korea and Taiwan are comparable, I don't know. China's rise is still by its size the biggest event in world history the last 30 years. And no one in 1989 would have predicted it.
        learc83 7y ago
        >Maybe South Korea and Taiwan are comparable, I don't know. China's rise is still by its size... That's what I said. Other developing countries have grown just as fast or faster. The difference is that China happens to have the largest population in the world. >Not only was China poor on an African level. It had a communist command economy. Compare to how the former Soviet block countries have floundered in the same period, despite starting from a higher economic level. China voluntarily introduced capitalism in a controlled fashion. Former Soviet countries were the remnants of a collapsed nation. They aren't particularly comparable during the time period you're looking at.
npongratz 7y ago
> It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes... I've been lucky not to experience this myself, but I imagine it is bad to experience the "different outcomes" firsthand when the governance system -- novel as it might appear from a distance -- has foundations in violent suppression of individual freedom.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Of course. Then again, when some lunatic American colonists tried an alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil, it worked out surprisingly well. I guess what I most of all am arguing against is unified world government.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    > alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil Kind of ridiculous hyperbole here; there may have been the usual establishment bootlickers saying that, but the US was hardly the first Republic in the world.
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    Ironically, one of the most controversial parts of the Annapolis Convention (which came up with the current US constitution after it was decided that the articles of confederation used since before independence didn't work) was the question of whether an effectively national government/republic over an area as large as the then 13 states was actually possible to operate as a democracy.
  - 18pfsmt 7y ago
    I think most reasonable people agree with the idea of pluralism, and benefit to diverse approaches to governance. However, I think your original take ignores the fact that China has stood on the shoulders of Western liberalism and the 20th century innovation it has produced. IP theft and mercantile trade policies can only work when existing alongside an innovative and free enterprise system which they can exploit for unilateral benefit.
  - 7y ago

gowld 7y ago

Why is it surprising? Maybe the Chinese have discovered the only way to build a lasting civilization that doesn't bomb itself into oblivion every century like Europe does.

darkpuma 7y ago
That's ignorant. The Taiping Rebellion was comparable in death toll to the world wars, despite the technology involved being significantly more primitive. No poison gas, no aerial strategic bombing, no blitzkrieg, dive bombers or machine guns. But 20-70 million people dead nevertheless.