6 ms·

I hate to be that guy, but won't this contribute to the depletion of our helium reserves? What would be so bad about hydrogen in relatively small balloons? It

I hate to be that guy, but won't this contribute to the depletion of our helium reserves? What would be so bad about hydrogen in relatively small balloons? It's not like they'd all be little Hindenbergs, right?

grenoire 7y ago
Not sure, I just imagine people attempting to shoot them down for absolutely no good reason. You would at least want to make them not blow up (especially aviation organisations).
- andrewflnr 7y ago
  If they're high enough, blowing up might actually be the safest option. Better that all the hydrogen burn off up there than on the ground, when it doesn't have enough to be bouyant but still enough to do damage.
  - segfaultbuserr 7y ago
    It's going to be a disaster in R&D or when you want to land them down for some maintenance...
- ravenstine 7y ago
  Won't they be way up high? Even if one blew up, it'd be too high to hurt anyone. In fact it'd probably be tough to make one blow up from that distance. The best one could do is shoot at it, which won't ignite the hydrogen.
  - grenoire 7y ago
    I think you are underestimating the effort people will go through to go viral on LiveLeak.
- TylerE 7y ago
  Hydrogen doesn't explode. It burns.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Hydrogen is explosive -- the flame front and thermal expansion exceed the speed of sound -- at concentrations from 18% - 60%. It is flamable at concentrations as low as 4% to as high as 75% (and to 95% in a pure oxygen mix). Hydrogen very much can and does go "boom". https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/8498/how-explosive-is-hydrogen-gas https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/8498/how-explo... http://people.clarkson.edu/~wwilcox/Design/flamlim2.pdf http://people.clarkson.edu/~wwilcox/Design/flamlim2.pdf
    - hedora 7y ago
      In this context, the hydrogen mix is nearly pure, and therefore not explosive. The hydrogen in the leaking balloon would be well above 60%, so it should burn at the source of the leak. The same effect is why natural gas stoves don’t explode in normal use.
- nradov 7y ago
  The balloons will fly higher than anyone with civilian weapons can hit. And shooting a hole in a hydrogen balloon wouldn't cause it to blow up anyway. The gas would just leak out.
  - casefields 7y ago
    Can't someone just launch A cube sat with an incendiary attached? Don't know how they would hit it, but theoretically wouldn't that get you within reach with a weapon that mortals can afford?
    - IAmEveryone 7y ago
      Someone could shoot their neighbor, set fire to every kindergarten, or make a sequel to Titanic. But, luckily, people tend to use their energy and creativity for better endeavors.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  On this logic, we wouldn't have planes though.
  - stronglikedan 7y ago
    These balloons don't carry people. People are more inclined to create property damage for entertainment than they are to murder people.
segfaultbuserr 7y ago
Do balloons use a significant portion of the total helium production? I cannot find the number but I believe the vast majority is used in industrial processes, not these large balloons...
- mNovak 7y ago
  Technically balloons use "balloon gas", which is essentially helium thats not pure enough for industrial applications. So I doubt a few hundred of these make a meaningful dent.
  - MisterTea 7y ago
    Are you saying that helium, a non reactive noble gas, can not be purified, or more properly, separated from other gas components?
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      It can be purified but it's probably cheaper to not purify since there's a market for the impure versions and even the pure version is being sold very cheaply.
      - MisterTea 7y ago
        The point is it's a poor excuse to frivolously use helium simply because it's dirty.
- onion2k 7y ago
  Do balloons use a significant portion of the total helium production? The problem is that we can't make new helium, and the rate at which it's being used far exceeds what we capture from natural gas production. A decade ago this was considered a serious problem. https://phys.org/news/2010-08-world-helium-nobel-prize-winner.html https://phys.org/news/2010-08-world-helium-nobel-prize-winne...
  - 7y ago
cm2012 7y ago
There isn't really a helium shortage.
- seieste 7y ago
  Why does everyone think there is?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - yoz-y 7y ago
    There were several articles written about it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2019/05/24/there-is-a-helium-shortage-what-you-need-to-know/#2908ff5070b3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2019/05/24/there-is-a-... Afaik the jist of it is that once it is used it escapes the atmosphere and there is a finite amount of it.
- nradov 7y ago
  There isn't technically a shortage because the government hasn't imposed any price controls. However the price has increased drastically in the past 10 years. My gas costs for scuba diving are way up.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Price increase indicates a shortage, since the purpose of a price increase is to select which sunset of consumers receive the product when not all can. Price increases are either free market rationing (a response to shortage) or a disappearance of readily accessible inputs.
    - nradov 7y ago
      That's not how shortages work. A shortage only exists when some external constraint prevents the market from clearing.
avocado4 7y ago
The plan has always been to move to cheaper hydrogen but it's logistically difficult because it's explosive (so everything needs to be done automatically & remotely at the launch site).
hedora 7y ago
Hydrogen balloons are much safer than people realize. The outside of the Hindenburg was made of solid jet fuel (which also happens to be decent airtight paint), which is what made for the really dramatic pictures. (Safer != inherently safe, to be clear)
- nielsole 7y ago
  If you are without valuable payload in 18-25km height there is nothing you can harm really even if you blow up. so maybe it may even make sense to add a self-destruct (ignition) of the balloon, if it malfunctions.
  - Breza 7y ago
    Space launch vehicles have self-destruct buttons (including the Space Shuttle) but they also carry enormous kinetic force. A balloon gone wild doesn't need to be destroyed. To your broader point, it doesn't seem especially risky to put hydrogen in modern balloons.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > The outside of the Hindenburg was made of solid jet fuel (which also happens to be decent airtight paint) No, it wasn't, and no, it doesn't. (The usual, but also wrong, story is that it was coated in solid rocket fuel.) https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/#rocket https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/#rocket

grenoire 7y ago

Not sure, I just imagine people attempting to shoot them down for absolutely no good reason. You would at least want to make them not blow up (especially aviation organisations).

andrewflnr 7y ago
If they're high enough, blowing up might actually be the safest option. Better that all the hydrogen burn off up there than on the ground, when it doesn't have enough to be bouyant but still enough to do damage.
- segfaultbuserr 7y ago
  It's going to be a disaster in R&D or when you want to land them down for some maintenance...
ravenstine 7y ago
Won't they be way up high? Even if one blew up, it'd be too high to hurt anyone. In fact it'd probably be tough to make one blow up from that distance. The best one could do is shoot at it, which won't ignite the hydrogen.
- grenoire 7y ago
  I think you are underestimating the effort people will go through to go viral on LiveLeak.
TylerE 7y ago
Hydrogen doesn't explode. It burns.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Hydrogen is explosive -- the flame front and thermal expansion exceed the speed of sound -- at concentrations from 18% - 60%. It is flamable at concentrations as low as 4% to as high as 75% (and to 95% in a pure oxygen mix). Hydrogen very much can and does go "boom". https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/8498/how-explosive-is-hydrogen-gas https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/8498/how-explo... http://people.clarkson.edu/~wwilcox/Design/flamlim2.pdf http://people.clarkson.edu/~wwilcox/Design/flamlim2.pdf
  - hedora 7y ago
    In this context, the hydrogen mix is nearly pure, and therefore not explosive. The hydrogen in the leaking balloon would be well above 60%, so it should burn at the source of the leak. The same effect is why natural gas stoves don’t explode in normal use.
nradov 7y ago
The balloons will fly higher than anyone with civilian weapons can hit. And shooting a hole in a hydrogen balloon wouldn't cause it to blow up anyway. The gas would just leak out.
- casefields 7y ago
  Can't someone just launch A cube sat with an incendiary attached? Don't know how they would hit it, but theoretically wouldn't that get you within reach with a weapon that mortals can afford?
  - IAmEveryone 7y ago
    Someone could shoot their neighbor, set fire to every kindergarten, or make a sequel to Titanic. But, luckily, people tend to use their energy and creativity for better endeavors.
inflatableDodo 7y ago
On this logic, we wouldn't have planes though.
- stronglikedan 7y ago
  These balloons don't carry people. People are more inclined to create property damage for entertainment than they are to murder people.

segfaultbuserr 7y ago

Do balloons use a significant portion of the total helium production? I cannot find the number but I believe the vast majority is used in industrial processes, not these large balloons...

mNovak 7y ago
Technically balloons use "balloon gas", which is essentially helium thats not pure enough for industrial applications. So I doubt a few hundred of these make a meaningful dent.
- MisterTea 7y ago
  Are you saying that helium, a non reactive noble gas, can not be purified, or more properly, separated from other gas components?
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    It can be purified but it's probably cheaper to not purify since there's a market for the impure versions and even the pure version is being sold very cheaply.
    - MisterTea 7y ago
      The point is it's a poor excuse to frivolously use helium simply because it's dirty.
onion2k 7y ago
Do balloons use a significant portion of the total helium production? The problem is that we can't make new helium, and the rate at which it's being used far exceeds what we capture from natural gas production. A decade ago this was considered a serious problem. https://phys.org/news/2010-08-world-helium-nobel-prize-winner.html https://phys.org/news/2010-08-world-helium-nobel-prize-winne...
- 7y ago

cm2012 7y ago

There isn't really a helium shortage.

seieste 7y ago
Why does everyone think there is?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- yoz-y 7y ago
  There were several articles written about it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2019/05/24/there-is-a-helium-shortage-what-you-need-to-know/#2908ff5070b3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2019/05/24/there-is-a-... Afaik the jist of it is that once it is used it escapes the atmosphere and there is a finite amount of it.
nradov 7y ago
There isn't technically a shortage because the government hasn't imposed any price controls. However the price has increased drastically in the past 10 years. My gas costs for scuba diving are way up.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Price increase indicates a shortage, since the purpose of a price increase is to select which sunset of consumers receive the product when not all can. Price increases are either free market rationing (a response to shortage) or a disappearance of readily accessible inputs.
  - nradov 7y ago
    That's not how shortages work. A shortage only exists when some external constraint prevents the market from clearing.

avocado4 7y ago

The plan has always been to move to cheaper hydrogen but it's logistically difficult because it's explosive (so everything needs to be done automatically & remotely at the launch site).

hedora 7y ago

Hydrogen balloons are much safer than people realize. The outside of the Hindenburg was made of solid jet fuel (which also happens to be decent airtight paint), which is what made for the really dramatic pictures. (Safer != inherently safe, to be clear)

nielsole 7y ago
If you are without valuable payload in 18-25km height there is nothing you can harm really even if you blow up. so maybe it may even make sense to add a self-destruct (ignition) of the balloon, if it malfunctions.
- Breza 7y ago
  Space launch vehicles have self-destruct buttons (including the Space Shuttle) but they also carry enormous kinetic force. A balloon gone wild doesn't need to be destroyed. To your broader point, it doesn't seem especially risky to put hydrogen in modern balloons.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> The outside of the Hindenburg was made of solid jet fuel (which also happens to be decent airtight paint) No, it wasn't, and no, it doesn't. (The usual, but also wrong, story is that it was coated in solid rocket fuel.) https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/#rocket https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/#rocket