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The terms "tear it to pieces", "ripped it to shreds", "destroyed" seem so emotive. It seems like these people loved the game enough to try and beat it in creati

The terms "tear it to pieces", "ripped it to shreds", "destroyed" seem so emotive. It seems like these people loved the game enough to try and beat it in creative new ways and that seems really awesome. Minecraft thrived on similar hackery in the early days too.

jacobolus 7y ago
> so emotive We may only be hearing about this story because this kind of language increased its chance of being shared. [I don’t think the developer resented the speed runners. He sounded flattered and amazed to me. But it’s sometimes hard to judge tone of voice from just text.]
- auto 7y ago
  Yeah, it’s a cool blurb and a neat game, but this whole post is indie gaming advertising 101.
  - jonny_eh 7y ago
    The lack of funding for traditional marketing is one of the greatest challenge for an indie developer. If they can come up with a (legal) way for getting attention, all the more power to them.
    - Zhyl 7y ago
      This is fine for this guy, but not repeatable. When it's one guy its a fun story - a performance piece almost. When it's repeated, staged or even just fabricated then you have the beginnings of a new form of clickbait.
    - auto 7y ago
      Definitely not knocking it, I've been in and out of the indie dev scene for quite a few years now, just calling a spade a spade is all.
      - calcifer 7y ago
        > just calling a spade a spade is all Why though, what does it add to the discussion? Why does it matter if a tiny indie developer gets a bit of exposure to his tiny little game? "It's just an ad" sounds needlessly cynical and dismissive.
        auto 7y ago
        I mean, if you want my honest opinion because this kind of post is brutally pervasive on reddit, and I come to HN for content of a higher caliber?
        maccard 7y ago
        HN is often just as bad, if not worse with the thinly veiled blog posts.
        c0vfefe 7y ago
        I for one appreciate learning a truth about the world, even if someone else thinks it's cynical & dismissive. Kinda like your second sentence is.
mkane848 7y ago
Yeah, especially considering Summer Games Done Quick just ended, it seems like a weird take on things. An entire week dedicated to speedrunning the love of the various franchises that were on display. To see people speedrunning as a negative is just...odd. People played it, and not only that, put the time and effort in to explore it and share with friends. What's the problem? How is spending literal hours collecting secrets and brute-forcing new tech "destroying" the game? Someone's clearly never run a game of D&D before, because I'd be ecstatic if people took literally anything I created and expanding it into a new form I couldn't have gotten on my own. Imagine, instead of complaining about the exposure, the game's creator used the feedback for another level (LEAVING the exploits in) and leaning on them as intended tech instead of seeing it as some "look how they massacred my boy" pity party. Crazy, doesn't even have to rewrite any engine code, just design a new level that emphasizes the new tech for these speedrunners. Average Joes can still play the "normal" version to practice, then ramp up to the new one. Why piss on a community that's shining a light on and celebrating your work? Author even ends with "It was difficult to watch them do this to my game but I learned to love watching them" - so is it just a clickbait title? Have I been played? Should I have listened to DJ Khaled?
- jowsie 7y ago
  Worth noting this post is from 11 days ago, before SGDQ started.
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  As the game's author says in the article > but I learned to love watching them. Their skill truly amazes me. I got the impression that the game's author is seriously happy about all this. The timing of the article before a speedrunning event looks like it is intended for maximal publicity. I'm not sure where you got the impression you did about the content of the article?
  - c0vfefe 7y ago
    It's called clickbait, guys.
- ddrdrck_ 7y ago
pdw 7y ago
The link should be read tongue in cheek, it's presented here out of context. https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/c2xapo/i_thought_i_made_a_hard_game_and_then_you_speed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/c2xapo/i_thought_... "Totally joking with that post. I have no hard feelings. I really thought it was awesome how much some members of your community took to the game and made it so much better based on your feedback and play style."
glacials 7y ago
These are pretty common terms in a speedrunning context and I do not believe they were meant by the author to be emotionally charged. Because speedruns often take advantage of game-breaking glitches, the extent to which the game has been literally broken is usually described with destructive terms like these. Smashing records, destroying games, obliterating levels, etc. It makes a bit more sense if you imagine the developer's intended way to play the game being a glass bridge across a chasm, and speedrunners literally shatter the bridge and glue the pieces into a ramp that they jump a dirtbike off. Source: I've been speedrunning for 7 years and my full-time job is in the speedrunning community
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  This is one of the worst parts of the speedrunning community, imo. The constant, "This team can't program" or "bad devs" or "LOL their QA department was asleep" commentary undermines what's potentially a very awesome relationship runners could have with devs. I've never understood this need to take pot shots at the devs while running, but it happens all the time during events like GDQ. Even when the developers are on the line chatting while the game is being played (which just seems straight up rude.) It also ignores all the complexity involved in making and shipping a game, which is definitely non-trivial.
  - Retric 7y ago
    I think the community would be more positive if the same issues did not always crop up. Several early 3D games increased player moment speed when holding strafe and forward at the same time. (Doom, EQ, etc.) That’s just incompetence and really should be described as such. Now some games may have intentionally copied common bugs for style reasons etc, but more often titles are just rushed out with many known bugs and or vastly insufficient QA.
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      Yes, that's a common issue (though typically you had to push against a wall), and it's an issue that still occurs in games today. It's also one that doesn't impact core gameplay for most people. Heck, a lot of players will feel quite clever for discovering and using abilities like that in a game. Fixing bugs like that require not fixing other bugs. They may have been aware of the issue and chose to fix other, more pressing bugs first. I'd strongly hesitate before labeling someone incompetent because their linear algebra didn't quite do vector math correctly in every case. I'm also surprised to hear you describe the devs of Doom as 'incompetent', given their widespread praise in the engineering community, specifically for their code. > Now some games may have intentionally copied common bugs for style reasons etc, but more often titles are just rushed out with many known bugs and or vastly insufficient QA. So in some ways, those bugs become a part of the culture. That's an interesting avenue to explore, but it's an aside from my point that insulting the devs (who probably aren't the ones making decisions about QA or release schedules) undermines a relationship speedrunners could have with the developer community. Unfortunately, QA costs money. Developers cost lots of money. Finding, root causing, and fixing bugs therefore costs lots and lots of money. You cannot just fix bugs forever, at some point you need to evaluate the current amount of money you've spent making the game and compare that to what you think you'll be able to make back on it. Does fixing that bug end up costing you more than you'll make back? Who knows, but it's a very real, complex prioritization problem that I don't think you are giving enough value or depth.
coleifer 7y ago
He was saying that in self-mockery, something hn knows nothing about apparently /s
anbop 7y ago
It’s content marketing. It uses those words to drive “engagement.”
mcv 7y ago
Exactly. I think this is probably the best thing that can happen to your first game: for a community to discover it and love it enough to put in this amount of work to beat it.

jacobolus 7y ago

> so emotive We may only be hearing about this story because this kind of language increased its chance of being shared. [I don’t think the developer resented the speed runners. He sounded flattered and amazed to me. But it’s sometimes hard to judge tone of voice from just text.]

auto 7y ago
Yeah, it’s a cool blurb and a neat game, but this whole post is indie gaming advertising 101.
- jonny_eh 7y ago
  The lack of funding for traditional marketing is one of the greatest challenge for an indie developer. If they can come up with a (legal) way for getting attention, all the more power to them.
  - Zhyl 7y ago
    This is fine for this guy, but not repeatable. When it's one guy its a fun story - a performance piece almost. When it's repeated, staged or even just fabricated then you have the beginnings of a new form of clickbait.
  - auto 7y ago
    Definitely not knocking it, I've been in and out of the indie dev scene for quite a few years now, just calling a spade a spade is all.
    - calcifer 7y ago
      > just calling a spade a spade is all Why though, what does it add to the discussion? Why does it matter if a tiny indie developer gets a bit of exposure to his tiny little game? "It's just an ad" sounds needlessly cynical and dismissive.
      - auto 7y ago
        I mean, if you want my honest opinion because this kind of post is brutally pervasive on reddit, and I come to HN for content of a higher caliber?
        maccard 7y ago
        HN is often just as bad, if not worse with the thinly veiled blog posts.
      - c0vfefe 7y ago
        I for one appreciate learning a truth about the world, even if someone else thinks it's cynical & dismissive. Kinda like your second sentence is.

mkane848 7y ago

Yeah, especially considering Summer Games Done Quick just ended, it seems like a weird take on things. An entire week dedicated to speedrunning the love of the various franchises that were on display. To see people speedrunning as a negative is just...odd. People played it, and not only that, put the time and effort in to explore it and share with friends. What's the problem? How is spending literal hours collecting secrets and brute-forcing new tech "destroying" the game? Someone's clearly never run a game of D&D before, because I'd be ecstatic if people took literally anything I created and expanding it into a new form I couldn't have gotten on my own. Imagine, instead of complaining about the exposure, the game's creator used the feedback for another level (LEAVING the exploits in) and leaning on them as intended tech instead of seeing it as some "look how they massacred my boy" pity party. Crazy, doesn't even have to rewrite any engine code, just design a new level that emphasizes the new tech for these speedrunners. Average Joes can still play the "normal" version to practice, then ramp up to the new one. Why piss on a community that's shining a light on and celebrating your work? Author even ends with "It was difficult to watch them do this to my game but I learned to love watching them" - so is it just a clickbait title? Have I been played? Should I have listened to DJ Khaled?

jowsie 7y ago
Worth noting this post is from 11 days ago, before SGDQ started.
hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
As the game's author says in the article > but I learned to love watching them. Their skill truly amazes me. I got the impression that the game's author is seriously happy about all this. The timing of the article before a speedrunning event looks like it is intended for maximal publicity. I'm not sure where you got the impression you did about the content of the article?
- c0vfefe 7y ago
  It's called clickbait, guys.
ddrdrck_ 7y ago

pdw 7y ago

The link should be read tongue in cheek, it's presented here out of context. https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/c2xapo/i_thought_i_made_a_hard_game_and_then_you_speed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/c2xapo/i_thought_... "Totally joking with that post. I have no hard feelings. I really thought it was awesome how much some members of your community took to the game and made it so much better based on your feedback and play style."

glacials 7y ago

These are pretty common terms in a speedrunning context and I do not believe they were meant by the author to be emotionally charged. Because speedruns often take advantage of game-breaking glitches, the extent to which the game has been literally broken is usually described with destructive terms like these. Smashing records, destroying games, obliterating levels, etc. It makes a bit more sense if you imagine the developer's intended way to play the game being a glass bridge across a chasm, and speedrunners literally shatter the bridge and glue the pieces into a ramp that they jump a dirtbike off. Source: I've been speedrunning for 7 years and my full-time job is in the speedrunning community

Pfhreak 7y ago
This is one of the worst parts of the speedrunning community, imo. The constant, "This team can't program" or "bad devs" or "LOL their QA department was asleep" commentary undermines what's potentially a very awesome relationship runners could have with devs. I've never understood this need to take pot shots at the devs while running, but it happens all the time during events like GDQ. Even when the developers are on the line chatting while the game is being played (which just seems straight up rude.) It also ignores all the complexity involved in making and shipping a game, which is definitely non-trivial.
- Retric 7y ago
  I think the community would be more positive if the same issues did not always crop up. Several early 3D games increased player moment speed when holding strafe and forward at the same time. (Doom, EQ, etc.) That’s just incompetence and really should be described as such. Now some games may have intentionally copied common bugs for style reasons etc, but more often titles are just rushed out with many known bugs and or vastly insufficient QA.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    Yes, that's a common issue (though typically you had to push against a wall), and it's an issue that still occurs in games today. It's also one that doesn't impact core gameplay for most people. Heck, a lot of players will feel quite clever for discovering and using abilities like that in a game. Fixing bugs like that require not fixing other bugs. They may have been aware of the issue and chose to fix other, more pressing bugs first. I'd strongly hesitate before labeling someone incompetent because their linear algebra didn't quite do vector math correctly in every case. I'm also surprised to hear you describe the devs of Doom as 'incompetent', given their widespread praise in the engineering community, specifically for their code. > Now some games may have intentionally copied common bugs for style reasons etc, but more often titles are just rushed out with many known bugs and or vastly insufficient QA. So in some ways, those bugs become a part of the culture. That's an interesting avenue to explore, but it's an aside from my point that insulting the devs (who probably aren't the ones making decisions about QA or release schedules) undermines a relationship speedrunners could have with the developer community. Unfortunately, QA costs money. Developers cost lots of money. Finding, root causing, and fixing bugs therefore costs lots and lots of money. You cannot just fix bugs forever, at some point you need to evaluate the current amount of money you've spent making the game and compare that to what you think you'll be able to make back on it. Does fixing that bug end up costing you more than you'll make back? Who knows, but it's a very real, complex prioritization problem that I don't think you are giving enough value or depth.

coleifer 7y ago

He was saying that in self-mockery, something hn knows nothing about apparently /s

anbop 7y ago

It’s content marketing. It uses those words to drive “engagement.”

mcv 7y ago

Exactly. I think this is probably the best thing that can happen to your first game: for a community to discover it and love it enough to put in this amount of work to beat it.