4 ms·

> That is balanced by the strictly superior American rule of law The rule of law is looking pretty tattered and worn in the US of A right now. What with the Pr

by olefoo 7y ago

> That is balanced by the strictly superior American rule of law The rule of law is looking pretty tattered and worn in the US of A right now. What with the President committing obstruction of justice in plain view and his AG declaring that a sitting President may not be indicted for any crime. Not to mention the grotesque violations of human rights that are happening at the network of concentration camps the current administration has repurposed.

adventured 7y ago
The US is not running a network of concentration camps. A hundred thousand illegal immigrants per month are being caught crossing into the US through the southern border. No other liberal democracy - from Canada to Finland to Japan to Australia - would tolerate such a flood of illegal immigration. Not even remotely close. Canada freaks out when a couple thousand illegal immigrants cross into its territory from the US in a given month. Holding illegal immigrants in detention facilities, because there is nowhere else to put them until they can be processed, is not the same thing as a concentration camp. Claiming that they're the same thing is a gross abuse of the term and its history.
- pjc50 7y ago
  The family separation policy is, however, purely punitive.
- danharaj 7y ago
  Call a spade a spade. It's a concentration camp because it's a camp where undesirable people are concentrated. The fact that you think it's justified to employ concentration camps is a separate argument.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    "Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. Fault Trump with everything that's his fault, but suggesting that this is a precursor to mass graves and genocide is just hyperbole.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      > Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. The fact that it's not literally the holocaust doesn't mean it's not a concentration camp.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
        > No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. It still is, because a "concentration camp" even in that sense still isn't just any camp where people are concentrated. It implies internment without charges, which is exactly what isn't happening here -- there is every expectation that there will be a proceeding to determine their immigration status, resulting in either release or deportation and not indefinite internment in violation of habeas corpus. > But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. Then make that claim and not the other one. If they have no access to soap then assert that as the thing that needs to be fixed -- because at least that can be fixed. How do you make a detention facility not a "concentration camp" under a definition of "concentration camp" that just means any detention facility?
        danharaj 7y ago
        > How do you make a detention facility not a "concentration camp" under a definition of "concentration camp" that just means any detention facility? You might just have to accept that in order to enforce some laws you're going to have to put people in mass detention and you may as well own that instead of trying to get people to not call it what it is because the term for it makes you uncomfortable.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    By your very broad definition, so is a PRISON. Which would mean every country on the planet runs "concentration camps", and render the term meaningless.
- alephr 7y ago
  It would help your argument if you could cite that number and show that it's part of a significant trend.
- kazagistar 7y ago
  No other "liberal democracy" has spent decades destabilizing democratically elected regimes, propping up dictators, and applying economic sanctions in nearby nations in the name of fighting communism, causing a massive flood of refugees fleeing those nations. Why can't America try paying the cost of its actions for once, instead of pushing those costs on innocent families and children fleeing famine and violence?
- cmurf 7y ago
  Completely false in every way including the appeal to history. The 1951 Convention on the Status of Refugees grants refugees very specific rights that are absolutely being violated by this policy, and the term "concentration camp" has been used in many other cases other than WWII concentration camps to mean exactly the thing the U.S. is doing to refugees on the southern border. I definitely consider them concentration camps, while as yet not being death camps. There already should be holy hell to pay for having done yet again what we promised never to do the last time we had concentration camps, for Japanese-American citizens. https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/editorial/2019/06/22/tribune-editorial-yes-we/ https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/editorial/2019/06/22/tribune-...
- root_axis 7y ago
  Separating kids from their parents and allowing them to die in cages is not necessary no matter one' stance on immigration.

by olefoo 7y ago

adventured 7y ago

The US is not running a network of concentration camps. A hundred thousand illegal immigrants per month are being caught crossing into the US through the southern border. No other liberal democracy - from Canada to Finland to Japan to Australia - would tolerate such a flood of illegal immigration. Not even remotely close. Canada freaks out when a couple thousand illegal immigrants cross into its territory from the US in a given month. Holding illegal immigrants in detention facilities, because there is nowhere else to put them until they can be processed, is not the same thing as a concentration camp. Claiming that they're the same thing is a gross abuse of the term and its history.

pjc50 7y ago
The family separation policy is, however, purely punitive.
danharaj 7y ago
Call a spade a spade. It's a concentration camp because it's a camp where undesirable people are concentrated. The fact that you think it's justified to employ concentration camps is a separate argument.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  "Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. Fault Trump with everything that's his fault, but suggesting that this is a precursor to mass graves and genocide is just hyperbole.
  - danharaj 7y ago
    > Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. The fact that it's not literally the holocaust doesn't mean it's not a concentration camp.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      > No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. It still is, because a "concentration camp" even in that sense still isn't just any camp where people are concentrated. It implies internment without charges, which is exactly what isn't happening here -- there is every expectation that there will be a proceeding to determine their immigration status, resulting in either release or deportation and not indefinite internment in violation of habeas corpus. > But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. Then make that claim and not the other one. If they have no access to soap then assert that as the thing that needs to be fixed -- because at least that can be fixed. How do you make a detention facility not a "concentration camp" under a definition of "concentration camp" that just means any detention facility?
      - danharaj 7y ago
        > How do you make a detention facility not a "concentration camp" under a definition of "concentration camp" that just means any detention facility? You might just have to accept that in order to enforce some laws you're going to have to put people in mass detention and you may as well own that instead of trying to get people to not call it what it is because the term for it makes you uncomfortable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  By your very broad definition, so is a PRISON. Which would mean every country on the planet runs "concentration camps", and render the term meaningless.
alephr 7y ago
It would help your argument if you could cite that number and show that it's part of a significant trend.
kazagistar 7y ago
No other "liberal democracy" has spent decades destabilizing democratically elected regimes, propping up dictators, and applying economic sanctions in nearby nations in the name of fighting communism, causing a massive flood of refugees fleeing those nations. Why can't America try paying the cost of its actions for once, instead of pushing those costs on innocent families and children fleeing famine and violence?
cmurf 7y ago
Completely false in every way including the appeal to history. The 1951 Convention on the Status of Refugees grants refugees very specific rights that are absolutely being violated by this policy, and the term "concentration camp" has been used in many other cases other than WWII concentration camps to mean exactly the thing the U.S. is doing to refugees on the southern border. I definitely consider them concentration camps, while as yet not being death camps. There already should be holy hell to pay for having done yet again what we promised never to do the last time we had concentration camps, for Japanese-American citizens. https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/editorial/2019/06/22/tribune-editorial-yes-we/ https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/editorial/2019/06/22/tribune-...
root_axis 7y ago
Separating kids from their parents and allowing them to die in cages is not necessary no matter one' stance on immigration.