5 ms·

Nvidia's lack of support for Wayland really hurts linux desktop adoption. It's especially bad new if there's no more x.org support

mspnp 7y ago
Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API. Linux on the desktop (and other consumer devices) is a reality, via Android and ChromeOS. What's not a reality is consumer use of the userspace tools and desktop environments lots of people mentally associate with Linux, but I doubt very much that's about driver APIs.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Ah the typical pat in the back. ChromeOS and Android could be running on top of Windows kernel and userspace would hardly notice.
    - cwyers 7y ago
      And "Android's adoption shows that Linux doesn't need a stable driver ABI" is a funny position to take, given how many problems that's caused Android, to the point where Google is adding a way for vendor drivers to work across versions of Android. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes...
    - kevingadd 7y ago
      Incidentally, the Windows Subsystem for Linux was reportedly the result of an effort to run Android userspace on top of the Windows Kernel that was at least somewhat successful, so your assertion is completely true. (https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-astoria-its-tool-for-porting-android-apps-to-windows-10/ https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-a...)
- Iolaum 7y ago
  Not really. It is well known across the industry how you can get drivers in linux now. There many players, big (Dell, Lenovo) and small (system76, Entroware, etc) that sell linux supported devices. Here's a great write up on the technical merits of linux's approach to drivers https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-nonsense.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-no...
  - rocqua 7y ago
    I think OP was thinking about commercial players who do not like to upstream their driver code. This might be for copyright/GPL reasons, or for trade-secret / code obscurity reasons. This is impossible with linux drivers. To quote from your link: So, if you have a Linux kernel driver that is not in the main kernel tree, what are you, a developer, supposed to do? Releasing a binary driver for every different kernel version for every distribution is a nightmare, and trying to keep up with an ever changing kernel interface is also a rough job. Simple, get your kernel driver into the main kernel tree (remember we are talking about drivers released under a GPL-compatible license here, if your code doesn’t fall under this category, good luck, you are on your own here, -snip-). Thing is, this excludes quite a lot of drivers from getting into the kernel. And that kind of sucks.
    - akoncius 7y ago
      I’m noob what regards kernel specifics, so probably a stupid question: so basically if you want kernel to support all possible hardware in the world, you would need to add those drivers to main kernel ? seems like a bad idea because the kernel’s source code would not fit into terabyte size disk..
      - mixmastamyk 7y ago
        There are a fewer drivers needed these days as interfaces become standardized. Most stuff uses a standard USB driver for example.
      - rocqua 7y ago
        If you want your driver to run in kernel space you need that code to be in the main kernel. Anything that runs in user-space can be kept outside of the main kernel repo. There is a bad middle version where you put some interface exposed to user-space into the mainline kernel and then dump in binary-blobs to interface with this. The bad part is doing this if you will be the only user of that interface, and if you do it to intentionally keep your driver out of the kernel. I believe there was/is an attempt by nvidea to essentially get a shim for their windows drivers into the kernel. The good version of this is where the userspace interface evolves naturally, and in cooperation between multiple consumers. Or at least a case where in the end there are multiple consumers of the interface in the end.
- jhasse 7y ago
  Not having to commit to a stable driver API has advantages, too.
Barrin92 7y ago
I think it's reasonable to assume that someone else will pick up the development. IIRC Ubuntu 20.04 at least as of now will still go with X.org
- bitwize 7y ago
  No. The Linux stack is pretty much whatever Red Hat says it is. If Red Hat says X is moribund, that will prompt upstreams to drop X support from their toolkits and the other distros will fall in line and go full Wayland. Maybe Slackware will hang on for a couple releases more. No one's going to maintain that big chungus code base just to buck the direction the wind is very obviously blowing.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
> Nvidia's lack of support for Wayland really hurts linux desktop adoption. I doubt it has any significant impact. Linux Desktop adoption is hurt by many, many things.
- Sean1708 7y ago
  I think they mean Wayland adoption on Linux Desktop, but I could be wrong.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    I'm not even sure that's all that true. Wayland is still missing a bunch of things that people desire from X or other OS's display systems.
    - jammygit 7y ago
      Such as?
      - shrimp_emoji 7y ago
        Allegedly: screenshots and autokey-like functionality I don't know who says that Wayland is ready for "prime time", but I also don't know how a major distro would force Wayland without an implementation of those features.
ialwaysforgetm 7y ago
This could be a chicken-and-egg problem: they don't focus on it since Wayland is not really widely adopted. And maybe Nividia's lack of Wayland support may be one of the reasons Wayland is not really widely adopted. Either way, Red Hat moving Wayland forward may at some point force them to reevaluate their decisions.
dralley 7y ago
>It's especially bad new if there's no more x.org support "Maintenance mode" means fixing bugs are still being fixed, but not huge new changes or features. It doesn't mean that it's no longer supported.

mspnp 7y ago

Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API.

dragonwriter 7y ago
> Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API. Linux on the desktop (and other consumer devices) is a reality, via Android and ChromeOS. What's not a reality is consumer use of the userspace tools and desktop environments lots of people mentally associate with Linux, but I doubt very much that's about driver APIs.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Ah the typical pat in the back. ChromeOS and Android could be running on top of Windows kernel and userspace would hardly notice.
  - cwyers 7y ago
    And "Android's adoption shows that Linux doesn't need a stable driver ABI" is a funny position to take, given how many problems that's caused Android, to the point where Google is adding a way for vendor drivers to work across versions of Android. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes...
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    Incidentally, the Windows Subsystem for Linux was reportedly the result of an effort to run Android userspace on top of the Windows Kernel that was at least somewhat successful, so your assertion is completely true. (https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-astoria-its-tool-for-porting-android-apps-to-windows-10/ https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-a...)
Iolaum 7y ago
Not really. It is well known across the industry how you can get drivers in linux now. There many players, big (Dell, Lenovo) and small (system76, Entroware, etc) that sell linux supported devices. Here's a great write up on the technical merits of linux's approach to drivers https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-nonsense.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-no...
- rocqua 7y ago
  I think OP was thinking about commercial players who do not like to upstream their driver code. This might be for copyright/GPL reasons, or for trade-secret / code obscurity reasons. This is impossible with linux drivers. To quote from your link: So, if you have a Linux kernel driver that is not in the main kernel tree, what are you, a developer, supposed to do? Releasing a binary driver for every different kernel version for every distribution is a nightmare, and trying to keep up with an ever changing kernel interface is also a rough job. Simple, get your kernel driver into the main kernel tree (remember we are talking about drivers released under a GPL-compatible license here, if your code doesn’t fall under this category, good luck, you are on your own here, -snip-). Thing is, this excludes quite a lot of drivers from getting into the kernel. And that kind of sucks.
  - akoncius 7y ago
    I’m noob what regards kernel specifics, so probably a stupid question: so basically if you want kernel to support all possible hardware in the world, you would need to add those drivers to main kernel ? seems like a bad idea because the kernel’s source code would not fit into terabyte size disk..
    - mixmastamyk 7y ago
      There are a fewer drivers needed these days as interfaces become standardized. Most stuff uses a standard USB driver for example.
    - rocqua 7y ago
      If you want your driver to run in kernel space you need that code to be in the main kernel. Anything that runs in user-space can be kept outside of the main kernel repo. There is a bad middle version where you put some interface exposed to user-space into the mainline kernel and then dump in binary-blobs to interface with this. The bad part is doing this if you will be the only user of that interface, and if you do it to intentionally keep your driver out of the kernel. I believe there was/is an attempt by nvidea to essentially get a shim for their windows drivers into the kernel. The good version of this is where the userspace interface evolves naturally, and in cooperation between multiple consumers. Or at least a case where in the end there are multiple consumers of the interface in the end.
jhasse 7y ago
Not having to commit to a stable driver API has advantages, too.

Barrin92 7y ago

I think it's reasonable to assume that someone else will pick up the development. IIRC Ubuntu 20.04 at least as of now will still go with X.org

bitwize 7y ago
No. The Linux stack is pretty much whatever Red Hat says it is. If Red Hat says X is moribund, that will prompt upstreams to drop X support from their toolkits and the other distros will fall in line and go full Wayland. Maybe Slackware will hang on for a couple releases more. No one's going to maintain that big chungus code base just to buck the direction the wind is very obviously blowing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

> Nvidia's lack of support for Wayland really hurts linux desktop adoption. I doubt it has any significant impact. Linux Desktop adoption is hurt by many, many things.

Sean1708 7y ago
I think they mean Wayland adoption on Linux Desktop, but I could be wrong.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  I'm not even sure that's all that true. Wayland is still missing a bunch of things that people desire from X or other OS's display systems.
  - jammygit 7y ago
    Such as?
    - shrimp_emoji 7y ago
      Allegedly: screenshots and autokey-like functionality I don't know who says that Wayland is ready for "prime time", but I also don't know how a major distro would force Wayland without an implementation of those features.

ialwaysforgetm 7y ago

This could be a chicken-and-egg problem: they don't focus on it since Wayland is not really widely adopted. And maybe Nividia's lack of Wayland support may be one of the reasons Wayland is not really widely adopted. Either way, Red Hat moving Wayland forward may at some point force them to reevaluate their decisions.

dralley 7y ago

>It's especially bad new if there's no more x.org support "Maintenance mode" means fixing bugs are still being fixed, but not huge new changes or features. It doesn't mean that it's no longer supported.