4 ms·

Because any sane person accepts the fact that some games are zero-sum or close to it, and in these games, his interests (and, by proxy, interests of his country

Because any sane person accepts the fact that some games are zero-sum or close to it, and in these games, his interests (and, by proxy, interests of his country) are more important to them. You want your country to spy on others and at the same time stop others from spying on you.

raxxorrax 7y ago
But in consequence you accept that the US committed an act of war against Russia and the Netherlands? I would be more careful with that and if I were a citizen I would request someone in charge to take immediate consequences because the cost/benefit-calculation turns against you if it becomes public. Zero-sum game, non? Luckily passive aggressiveness isn't an act of war at least.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Remind me again when the CIA used Chemical Weapons (a war crime -Skripal Style ) on Russian and Dutch soil
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    That is not a validly deducted argument and not the topic. There is a lot of info about crimes comitted by the CIA, but this isn't about any naughtyness competition.
    - golergka 7y ago
      > this isn't about any naughtyness competition But it absolutely is. Whataboutism is an illogical thing if you're judging actions of some actor on some abstract moral scale, this is true. But that's not the conversation here here, as we're talking not about ethic, but about public perception and rationality of offensive actions. And in this game, the context of actions of adversaries matters a great deal: if your opponents do something much worse, smaller on your behalf are expected to draw much less scrutiny and therefore, become much "cheaper".
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      If your going to tone police me spell the words right - and if you are going to use the term "war crime" use it correctly. Deploying Weapons of Mass Applicability i.e. nerve agents is a "War Crime" according to Geneva conventions.
      - raxxorrax 7y ago
        I didn't use the term war crime. I used 'act of war' which is something different to my knowledge but includes attacks on digital infrastructure as defined by the US government. Pardon my spelling, not my native tongue, but judging from your answer it must have obfuscated the meaning of my comment.
      - ummonk 7y ago
        >If your going to tone police me spell the words right If you're going to tell someone else to spell right, you should make sure to spell "you're" correctly yourself.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
- golergka 7y ago
  > committed an act of war In a legal sense, may be. I don't find this important though. > cost/benefit-calculation turns against you if it becomes public It has become public, and I'm yet to see any actual cost.
adrianN 7y ago
I'm not sure what zero sum game they're playing that requires hacking Yandex, but I'd strongly prefer if my government used the expertise of the hackers for fixing the security issues that enable these hacks instead of keeping them secret for the use as weapons.
- golergka 7y ago
  > I'd strongly prefer if my government used the expertise of the hackers for fixing the security issues that enable these hacks instead of keeping them secret for the use as weapons How have you come to this conclusion? The reason I'm asking is not that I hold the opposite opinion. It's that I think that this dilemma is inherently hard as there are very good arguments for both points of view and I cannot see an easy way to find any solution to it.

raxxorrax 7y ago

But in consequence you accept that the US committed an act of war against Russia and the Netherlands? I would be more careful with that and if I were a citizen I would request someone in charge to take immediate consequences because the cost/benefit-calculation turns against you if it becomes public. Zero-sum game, non? Luckily passive aggressiveness isn't an act of war at least.

C1sc0cat 7y ago
Remind me again when the CIA used Chemical Weapons (a war crime -Skripal Style ) on Russian and Dutch soil
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  That is not a validly deducted argument and not the topic. There is a lot of info about crimes comitted by the CIA, but this isn't about any naughtyness competition.
  - golergka 7y ago
    > this isn't about any naughtyness competition But it absolutely is. Whataboutism is an illogical thing if you're judging actions of some actor on some abstract moral scale, this is true. But that's not the conversation here here, as we're talking not about ethic, but about public perception and rationality of offensive actions. And in this game, the context of actions of adversaries matters a great deal: if your opponents do something much worse, smaller on your behalf are expected to draw much less scrutiny and therefore, become much "cheaper".
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    If your going to tone police me spell the words right - and if you are going to use the term "war crime" use it correctly. Deploying Weapons of Mass Applicability i.e. nerve agents is a "War Crime" according to Geneva conventions.
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      I didn't use the term war crime. I used 'act of war' which is something different to my knowledge but includes attacks on digital infrastructure as defined by the US government. Pardon my spelling, not my native tongue, but judging from your answer it must have obfuscated the meaning of my comment.
    - ummonk 7y ago
      >If your going to tone police me spell the words right If you're going to tell someone else to spell right, you should make sure to spell "you're" correctly yourself.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
golergka 7y ago
> committed an act of war In a legal sense, may be. I don't find this important though. > cost/benefit-calculation turns against you if it becomes public It has become public, and I'm yet to see any actual cost.

adrianN 7y ago

I'm not sure what zero sum game they're playing that requires hacking Yandex, but I'd strongly prefer if my government used the expertise of the hackers for fixing the security issues that enable these hacks instead of keeping them secret for the use as weapons.

golergka 7y ago
> I'd strongly prefer if my government used the expertise of the hackers for fixing the security issues that enable these hacks instead of keeping them secret for the use as weapons How have you come to this conclusion? The reason I'm asking is not that I hold the opposite opinion. It's that I think that this dilemma is inherently hard as there are very good arguments for both points of view and I cannot see an easy way to find any solution to it.