8 ms·

Homeland Security Proves It Knows Little About The Internet - Or The Law

158 points by julian37 16y ago

famblycat 16y ago
"Equally troubling is that magistrate judge Margaret Nagle signed off on the warrants (literally, with a rubber stamp) without questioning any of this, from the look of things." When judges sign off on stuff like this, do they consult at all with independent technical experts on the implications of the evidence, or do they just take the conclusions at face value? I sure hope they consult because even if they're good at what they do, how can they be expected to be any sort of check on the process when they haven't the technical background to interpret the evidence?
- zacharycohn 16y ago
  I think even beyond not having the technical knowledge to identify problems, there were a lot of pretty obvious problems (pointing to an article that demonstrated piracy helped sales, etc) here that the judge should be able to identify.
- bigiain 16y ago
  I would have thought (without any legal training or local US knowledge) that the purpose of having a judge need to sign the warrant was to ensure the people writing the requests do appropriate research and fact-checking. I'd guess what this guy has done is technically perjury. At the very least I'd call it contempt of court... I bet he never gets charged with it though.
- puredemo 16y ago
  I wonder if a judge would be willing to shut down this site simply because it's titled "Hacker News." It doesn't seem to be out of the realm of possibility considering the processes followed in this case.
  - Corrado 16y ago
    In a previous job I was told to stay away from any "hacking" web sites because they watch everything. I didn't read Hacker News at work for 3 months. Thankfully, I got laid off from that job and now have a much better one where I'm encouraged to read all the hacker stuff I can. :)
    - jrockway 16y ago
      Yeah, I hear this from time to time. My guess is that it is too much work to read every site every employee reads. When it comes time to fire them, though, then they go through your browsing history so they can fire you for reading "hacking web sites" instead of "not doing any work". Just speculating, but I'm having trouble imagining a department where the reading habits of 300,000 employees are analyzed in real time.
stretchwithme 16y ago
Homeland Security is an auto-immune disorder.
- JCTony 16y ago
  DHS should really be focusing resources on domestic terrorism rather than shutting down a few websites. If even one American civilian dies because DHS was busy shutting down blogs instead of shutting down a terrorist group ho will they feel then? Obviously they won't care like usual but still.
  - ams6110 16y ago
    DHS is an umbrella organization that includes many organizations that were formerly under the DOJ. Not defending this action, just pointing out that the mission of the DHS is broader than just "fighting terrorism".
  - scrod 16y ago
    >DHS should really be focusing resources on domestic terrorism rather than shutting down a few websites. Sadly, DHS itself is probably a far greater source of domestic terror than any currently operating independent group.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > DHS should really be focusing resources on domestic terrorism rather than shutting down a few websites. What domestic terrorism? > how will they feel then? They'll yell that they need more money and legal authority.
    - Corrado 16y ago
      Yup, all those TSA agents instilling fear and loathing at the airport are expensive.
civilian 16y ago
How did past generations deal with the problem of idiot and/or old law enforcers misunderstanding technology? And as technology improves more quickly, are we at risk of having even more of a problem of disconnect between the technologically proficient and the (often confused) government bureaucrats?
- jorgem 16y ago
  In court, cops are always right. Juries/judges almost always take the law enforcment's words at face value.
  - evgen 16y ago
    This is because criminals lie; the role of the defense attorney for a guilty client is to wrap a plausible story around this lie. The prosecution and law enforcement is playing an iterated prisoner's dilemma and the accused is only there for a single game. If law enforcement or the prosecution lies then they may get away with it, or they may get caught. If the latter they can face fines, loss of the status that allows them to practice their profession, loss of pension, and even imprisonment. If the accused lies and gets caught they are unlikely to face any additional charges beyond the ones that brought them before the court in the first place. The accused has a strong incentive to lie and the prosecution does not, judges and juries know this and that is why they weigh testimony differently given the source.
    - bluedanieru 16y ago
      You're reasoning as though the prosecution and police officers have no incentive to lie when they do. They are under pressure to make arrests and make them stick. That's their 'job'. So, both sides have an incentive to lie. Juries give credence to law enforcement testimony out of deference to authority.
      - stretchwithme 16y ago
        maybe we need better incentives and I think we used to have better incentives, back when enforcement was local and directly responsible to the parents of those whose heads they might crack. Of course, they weren't always fair to people just passing through. The community relationships of the past have been weakened and/or replaced with relationships to politicians and unions. I see no reason why the police should not be subjected to rule of law like the rest of us.
joe_the_user 16y ago
If you effectively make the law, then ipso facto you can't be clueless about the law... maybe clueless... The questions remains whether this will wind-up being Homeland Security making the law...
grellas 16y ago
The problem here is not so much with a judge or magistrate being ignorant of technical issues but rather with a set of laws or procedures that allows a prosecuting authority to come in with a heavy hand to get onerous remedies without affording the affected party a proper opportunity to respond, at least at the first step in the proceeding. As long as the affected party gets a fair opportunity to respond, that party will put contrary evidence and arguments before the judge or magistrate, including affidavits of experts who explain the relevant technical issues. Once a full record is before the court, issues tend to be fairly and properly decided. Obviously, at the warrant stage in this proceeding, everything was one-sided. In such cases, at least at the ex parte phase, things will tend to be "rubber stamped" by an official, such as a magistrate, who probably has all of 10 or 15 minutes to devote to considering this particular item as one among what might be dozens of items presented to that official in a given day. The key is always one of due process. If all sides get to present their case, judges and magistrates will tend to conscientious and well-supported decisions. They do not need specific technical training to be able to do this, as they will usually be well-educated by the affected party on whatever technical deficiencies might exist in the prosecutor's position. That obviously did not happen here because this particular step appears to have been decided based on a one-sided presentation only.
- graphene 16y ago
  Would you advocate making a conviction necessary for a dns takedown, or letting defendants make their case before a warrant is issued? Your comment seems to imply that the latter is not the case at the moment; if so, do you have any idea why not?
- WettowelReactor 16y ago
  Although your argument stands up for situations under normal due process the special exemption cases like this shift the burden of education and responsibility to the judge. In a case where no due process is given the judge needs to be held to a much higher standard. In this situation the judge’s order is a tremendous exercise of power which needs to be balanced with comparable responsibility and accountability.
tomjen3 16y ago
The head of ICE should be shacked over this - not because of the way it was done, but because homeland security should concern themselves with nothing except stopping terrorist attacks until the present war on terror is over. With all the urgency politicians have put in to it, we can afford to waste time on trivial issues of copyright. Unless punished, they will never learn.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  What does ICE stand for?
  - dangrossman 16y ago
    US Immigration and Customs Enforcement
  - pmh 16y ago
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_En...
  - anigbrowl 16y ago
    Sorry folks - that was really a rhetorical question directed at the grandparent.
tdfx 16y ago
The Electronic Frontier Foundation is a 501 (c) (3) charitable organization. You can still get some last donations in before the close of 2010.
digitalclubb 16y ago
Incredible that people with power have a real lack of understanding in their field
- hexis 16y ago
  Once one has power, what do they need understanding for? From our perspective, we would like the powerful to use their power wisely. From the perspective of someone with power, they are very unlikely to consider themselves unwise and in need of more understanding. And who is going to tell someone with power that they are unwise and lack understanding?

158 points by julian37 16y ago

"Equally troubling is that magistrate judge Margaret Nagle signed off on the warrants (literally, with a rubber stamp) without questioning any of this, from the look of things." When judges sign off on stuff like this, do they consult at all with independent technical experts on the implications of the evidence, or do they just take the conclusions at face value? I sure hope they consult because even if they're good at what they do, how can they be expected to be any sort of check on the process when they haven't the technical background to interpret the evidence?

zacharycohn 16y ago
I think even beyond not having the technical knowledge to identify problems, there were a lot of pretty obvious problems (pointing to an article that demonstrated piracy helped sales, etc) here that the judge should be able to identify.
bigiain 16y ago
I would have thought (without any legal training or local US knowledge) that the purpose of having a judge need to sign the warrant was to ensure the people writing the requests do appropriate research and fact-checking. I'd guess what this guy has done is technically perjury. At the very least I'd call it contempt of court... I bet he never gets charged with it though.
puredemo 16y ago
I wonder if a judge would be willing to shut down this site simply because it's titled "Hacker News." It doesn't seem to be out of the realm of possibility considering the processes followed in this case.
- Corrado 16y ago
  In a previous job I was told to stay away from any "hacking" web sites because they watch everything. I didn't read Hacker News at work for 3 months. Thankfully, I got laid off from that job and now have a much better one where I'm encouraged to read all the hacker stuff I can. :)
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Yeah, I hear this from time to time. My guess is that it is too much work to read every site every employee reads. When it comes time to fire them, though, then they go through your browsing history so they can fire you for reading "hacking web sites" instead of "not doing any work". Just speculating, but I'm having trouble imagining a department where the reading habits of 300,000 employees are analyzed in real time.

stretchwithme 16y ago

Homeland Security is an auto-immune disorder.

JCTony 16y ago
DHS should really be focusing resources on domestic terrorism rather than shutting down a few websites. If even one American civilian dies because DHS was busy shutting down blogs instead of shutting down a terrorist group ho will they feel then? Obviously they won't care like usual but still.
- ams6110 16y ago
  DHS is an umbrella organization that includes many organizations that were formerly under the DOJ. Not defending this action, just pointing out that the mission of the DHS is broader than just "fighting terrorism".
- scrod 16y ago
  >DHS should really be focusing resources on domestic terrorism rather than shutting down a few websites. Sadly, DHS itself is probably a far greater source of domestic terror than any currently operating independent group.
- anamax 16y ago
  > DHS should really be focusing resources on domestic terrorism rather than shutting down a few websites. What domestic terrorism? > how will they feel then? They'll yell that they need more money and legal authority.
  - Corrado 16y ago
    Yup, all those TSA agents instilling fear and loathing at the airport are expensive.

civilian 16y ago

How did past generations deal with the problem of idiot and/or old law enforcers misunderstanding technology? And as technology improves more quickly, are we at risk of having even more of a problem of disconnect between the technologically proficient and the (often confused) government bureaucrats?

jorgem 16y ago
In court, cops are always right. Juries/judges almost always take the law enforcment's words at face value.
- evgen 16y ago
  This is because criminals lie; the role of the defense attorney for a guilty client is to wrap a plausible story around this lie. The prosecution and law enforcement is playing an iterated prisoner's dilemma and the accused is only there for a single game. If law enforcement or the prosecution lies then they may get away with it, or they may get caught. If the latter they can face fines, loss of the status that allows them to practice their profession, loss of pension, and even imprisonment. If the accused lies and gets caught they are unlikely to face any additional charges beyond the ones that brought them before the court in the first place. The accused has a strong incentive to lie and the prosecution does not, judges and juries know this and that is why they weigh testimony differently given the source.
  - bluedanieru 16y ago
    You're reasoning as though the prosecution and police officers have no incentive to lie when they do. They are under pressure to make arrests and make them stick. That's their 'job'. So, both sides have an incentive to lie. Juries give credence to law enforcement testimony out of deference to authority.
    - stretchwithme 16y ago
      maybe we need better incentives and I think we used to have better incentives, back when enforcement was local and directly responsible to the parents of those whose heads they might crack. Of course, they weren't always fair to people just passing through. The community relationships of the past have been weakened and/or replaced with relationships to politicians and unions. I see no reason why the police should not be subjected to rule of law like the rest of us.

joe_the_user 16y ago

If you effectively make the law, then ipso facto you can't be clueless about the law... maybe clueless... The questions remains whether this will wind-up being Homeland Security making the law...

grellas 16y ago

The problem here is not so much with a judge or magistrate being ignorant of technical issues but rather with a set of laws or procedures that allows a prosecuting authority to come in with a heavy hand to get onerous remedies without affording the affected party a proper opportunity to respond, at least at the first step in the proceeding. As long as the affected party gets a fair opportunity to respond, that party will put contrary evidence and arguments before the judge or magistrate, including affidavits of experts who explain the relevant technical issues. Once a full record is before the court, issues tend to be fairly and properly decided. Obviously, at the warrant stage in this proceeding, everything was one-sided. In such cases, at least at the ex parte phase, things will tend to be "rubber stamped" by an official, such as a magistrate, who probably has all of 10 or 15 minutes to devote to considering this particular item as one among what might be dozens of items presented to that official in a given day. The key is always one of due process. If all sides get to present their case, judges and magistrates will tend to conscientious and well-supported decisions. They do not need specific technical training to be able to do this, as they will usually be well-educated by the affected party on whatever technical deficiencies might exist in the prosecutor's position. That obviously did not happen here because this particular step appears to have been decided based on a one-sided presentation only.

graphene 16y ago
Would you advocate making a conviction necessary for a dns takedown, or letting defendants make their case before a warrant is issued? Your comment seems to imply that the latter is not the case at the moment; if so, do you have any idea why not?
WettowelReactor 16y ago
Although your argument stands up for situations under normal due process the special exemption cases like this shift the burden of education and responsibility to the judge. In a case where no due process is given the judge needs to be held to a much higher standard. In this situation the judge’s order is a tremendous exercise of power which needs to be balanced with comparable responsibility and accountability.

tomjen3 16y ago

The head of ICE should be shacked over this - not because of the way it was done, but because homeland security should concern themselves with nothing except stopping terrorist attacks until the present war on terror is over. With all the urgency politicians have put in to it, we can afford to waste time on trivial issues of copyright. Unless punished, they will never learn.

anigbrowl 16y ago
What does ICE stand for?
- dangrossman 16y ago
  US Immigration and Customs Enforcement
- pmh 16y ago
  Immigration and Customs Enforcement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_En...
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  Sorry folks - that was really a rhetorical question directed at the grandparent.

tdfx 16y ago

The Electronic Frontier Foundation is a 501 (c) (3) charitable organization. You can still get some last donations in before the close of 2010.

digitalclubb 16y ago

Incredible that people with power have a real lack of understanding in their field

hexis 16y ago
Once one has power, what do they need understanding for? From our perspective, we would like the powerful to use their power wisely. From the perspective of someone with power, they are very unlikely to consider themselves unwise and in need of more understanding. And who is going to tell someone with power that they are unwise and lack understanding?