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given a fixed budget we're probably better off buying 2 diesel buses rather than a single electric bus. I think the situation is a little more complicated than

by NickM 7y ago

given a fixed budget we're probably better off buying 2 diesel buses rather than a single electric bus. I think the situation is a little more complicated than that. Electricity is a much cheaper fuel than diesel, and maintenance costs are lower for electric vehicles too, so in the long term electric buses may end up saving more money than they cost. Add to that the fact that interest rates are very low right now, and it may even turn out that financing the electric buses and charging systems could allow cities to save money from day one, though I haven't crunched any numbers so this is admittedly just speculation on my part.

semi-extrinsic 7y ago
> maintenance costs are lower for electric vehicles I think there is a <citation needed> here. Do ICE drivetrains really constitute a large fraction of the maintenance costs on cars and buses? In my experience, suspension and steering, and auxiliaries, are the things that break.
- vvanders 7y ago
  My anecdotal evidence of ~90k miles on our EV says yes. A coolant flush, tires and windshield wiper fluid are the only things I've done in that time. Compare that with Brakes, Oil changes, Transmission service, DPF + DEF and the host of other things you get with a diesel engine + transmission. We've got a diesel truck, diesel tractor and EV, it's pretty easy to see the maintenance differences between the three of them over the years(the tractor being the highest with the added complexity of a hydraulic system).
  - crummy 7y ago
    I don't know anything about cars. Why did you need work done on your brakes on a diesel but not on an electric?
    - coryrc 7y ago
      Regenerative braking
    - opencl 7y ago
      Electric vehicles and hybrids use regenerative braking from the motor for a lot of their stopping power. They do still need brake work but significantly less often (100-200K mile interval vs ~50K though there is considerable variance depending on driving habits) because the friction brakes are engaged less often and so wear down more slowly.
    - tialaramex 7y ago
      The EV gets to just run everything backwards when you step on the brakes. This won't stop you, but it'll make a huge difference to the remaining force needed to stop you, so it massively reduces wear on brakes and (which is why they did it) increases the effective range of the vehicle. And since they aren't worn out, the brakes need maintenance far less often. Driven gently the brakes on a EV might last its useful lifetime. You can't do this with ICE, if you put diesel fumes in a compression chamber and pump the cylinders up and down, it doesn't turn back into diesel fuel, combustion isn't symmetric, so you need to actually have brakes.
    - rlucas 7y ago
      I doubt it's due to the EV's regenerative braking; if anything, that's a more complex system with more things that can go wrong. The answer is probably easier: a Prius is 3300 lbs and a Dodge Ram is 6600 lbs and carries much, much more if working. Those truck brakes are going to be thrashed much harder.
      - vvanders 7y ago
        Not really, the 85D weighs nearly the same as our Ram 1500 EcoDiesel(taken both to the dump scales at one point or another). It really does come down to the fact that you brake in the 5-10mph range on the EV(or not at all in stop/go traffic).
      - dahfizz 7y ago
        The regenerative braking system is not complicated at all. In fact, it comes basically for free! All that happens is you cut power to the motor but leave the wheels attached to the motor. This is the same as "engine braking" on a manual. The wheels turn the motor, which steals kinetic energy from the car and charges the battery. There's no extra bits or anything. It's all in the drivetrain that's there already.
- sitharus 7y ago
  Certainly suspension, steering and auxiliaries are the things that break, but every year (or 15,000km, or whatever your manufacturer recommends) you need to replace the engine oil and filter. Less frequently you need transmission fluids, coolant, air intake filter, brake pads and other consumables. On diesels you also need to refill the emissions compensation tank (the one VW cheated with), replace particulate filters. Heavily used vehicles need these replaced more often. Electric motors will need their bearings replacing eventually, but they have no transmission fluids, no circulating oil picking up combustion products, and regenerative braking removes a huge amount of wear on brake pads. I have a plug-in hybrid (EV infrastructure isn't great where I live) and after 2500km the brakes still stick like new. They've barely been used.
- petre 7y ago
  Yes. Fluid changes, filter changes, brake pads, clutch maintenance, sparkplugs, injectors etc.

by NickM 7y ago

semi-extrinsic 7y ago

> maintenance costs are lower for electric vehicles I think there is a <citation needed> here. Do ICE drivetrains really constitute a large fraction of the maintenance costs on cars and buses? In my experience, suspension and steering, and auxiliaries, are the things that break.

vvanders 7y ago
My anecdotal evidence of ~90k miles on our EV says yes. A coolant flush, tires and windshield wiper fluid are the only things I've done in that time. Compare that with Brakes, Oil changes, Transmission service, DPF + DEF and the host of other things you get with a diesel engine + transmission. We've got a diesel truck, diesel tractor and EV, it's pretty easy to see the maintenance differences between the three of them over the years(the tractor being the highest with the added complexity of a hydraulic system).
- crummy 7y ago
  I don't know anything about cars. Why did you need work done on your brakes on a diesel but not on an electric?
  - coryrc 7y ago
    Regenerative braking
  - opencl 7y ago
    Electric vehicles and hybrids use regenerative braking from the motor for a lot of their stopping power. They do still need brake work but significantly less often (100-200K mile interval vs ~50K though there is considerable variance depending on driving habits) because the friction brakes are engaged less often and so wear down more slowly.
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    The EV gets to just run everything backwards when you step on the brakes. This won't stop you, but it'll make a huge difference to the remaining force needed to stop you, so it massively reduces wear on brakes and (which is why they did it) increases the effective range of the vehicle. And since they aren't worn out, the brakes need maintenance far less often. Driven gently the brakes on a EV might last its useful lifetime. You can't do this with ICE, if you put diesel fumes in a compression chamber and pump the cylinders up and down, it doesn't turn back into diesel fuel, combustion isn't symmetric, so you need to actually have brakes.
  - rlucas 7y ago
    I doubt it's due to the EV's regenerative braking; if anything, that's a more complex system with more things that can go wrong. The answer is probably easier: a Prius is 3300 lbs and a Dodge Ram is 6600 lbs and carries much, much more if working. Those truck brakes are going to be thrashed much harder.
    - vvanders 7y ago
      Not really, the 85D weighs nearly the same as our Ram 1500 EcoDiesel(taken both to the dump scales at one point or another). It really does come down to the fact that you brake in the 5-10mph range on the EV(or not at all in stop/go traffic).
    - dahfizz 7y ago
      The regenerative braking system is not complicated at all. In fact, it comes basically for free! All that happens is you cut power to the motor but leave the wheels attached to the motor. This is the same as "engine braking" on a manual. The wheels turn the motor, which steals kinetic energy from the car and charges the battery. There's no extra bits or anything. It's all in the drivetrain that's there already.
sitharus 7y ago
Certainly suspension, steering and auxiliaries are the things that break, but every year (or 15,000km, or whatever your manufacturer recommends) you need to replace the engine oil and filter. Less frequently you need transmission fluids, coolant, air intake filter, brake pads and other consumables. On diesels you also need to refill the emissions compensation tank (the one VW cheated with), replace particulate filters. Heavily used vehicles need these replaced more often. Electric motors will need their bearings replacing eventually, but they have no transmission fluids, no circulating oil picking up combustion products, and regenerative braking removes a huge amount of wear on brake pads. I have a plug-in hybrid (EV infrastructure isn't great where I live) and after 2500km the brakes still stick like new. They've barely been used.
petre 7y ago
Yes. Fluid changes, filter changes, brake pads, clutch maintenance, sparkplugs, injectors etc.