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The real reason to look at battery-electric buses is pure dollars and sense. Battery-electric buses can have lower lifecycle O&M costs. The current generation m

The real reason to look at battery-electric buses is pure dollars and sense. Battery-electric buses can have lower lifecycle O&M costs. The current generation might not have lower O&M costs, but there is definitely a path to lower O&M costs with electric versus bus with internal combustion engines.

bobthepanda 7y ago
The main issue right now is range anxiety. In today's world, a diesel bus is able to run for an entire day, doing route(s) back and forth without going back to the depot for refueling and charging. This can be true for an electric bus, but in general the range is not longer, and depends on stuff like - elevation changes in the route - climate; not only do batteries perform worse in cold weather, but heating and cooling makes up a significant amount of energy draw. In an ICE bus usually the ICE itself generates waste heat. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-battery-recharge-new-flyer-byd-proterra-beb/577954/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-... > Similarly, the Minnesota source claimed that over the three-week trial, electricity consumption was 70 percent heating and only 30 percent motion. > Wright said (as of early fall) that Moscow’s trial routes for BEBs—trolleybus Routes 73, 76, 80, and 83—have had to use more buses just to run the same service, pointing to before and after slides. The four routes appear to have gone from 46 trolleybuses to 82 BEBs without any increase in service frequency, presumably because BEBs have considerable down time for midday charging. That incurs a lot of additional costs: - buses not in service while driving to and from charging points are personnel and vehicle hours that cost money, especially if after charging you need to be able to place the driver in a bus actually going into service - you are maintaining and storing a much larger fleet of buses now Until an electric bus can be made that can run a full day without charging, costs will rise for electric bus adopters.
- rightbyte 7y ago
  You can charge the busses at the endstation with a inverted "train roof thing" for 5 min/45 min drive. Heating should not really be a problem. You should use some open flame heater with e.g. gas, wood spill etc for that not high quality electricity or gasoline. (Sorry swedish but look at the picture of the setup) https://www.bussmagasinet.se/2018/03/premiardags-i-ostersund-for-scanias-elbussar/ https://www.bussmagasinet.se/2018/03/premiardags-i-ostersund...
  - jefft255 7y ago
    I am extremely skeptical about your open flame idea, especially from a security standpoint and temperature control/maintenance. Also, if as another poster says 70% of the energy goes to heating then why replace this with a very dirty energy source? Kinda defeats the purpose.
    - rightbyte 7y ago
      Ye, maybe I should have written enclosed open flame. I meant some sort of protected open flame heating a tube of water. Is burner the correct term? Having a auxiliary diesel burner with water as medium is standard practice in the area. The buses have so large windows that the heating power is quite ridiculous. Maybe EV-buses need smaller windows? I tried to figure out how the buses and the article are heated and another article states electricity and oil burner when it's quite cold. (https://www.jamtkraft.se/om-jamtkraft/nyhetsrum/stadsbussar-laddade-med-fornybar-el/ https://www.jamtkraft.se/om-jamtkraft/nyhetsrum/stadsbussar-...) I don't think it's reasonable to heat them only with electricity in that climate. Maybe a wood pellet burner could be used if one is made for automotive use? I wonder if the pellets would bounce around too much ... probably only good enough in rural areas where there would be no smog problems. The specification demands on heating oil is lower, so you could make it from only tall oil (tree oil). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_oil
      - bobthepanda 7y ago
        Biomass or biofuel being renewable or good for the environment is debatable at best, especially when considering unintended consequences (like Brazilian rainforests getting slashed for biofuel crops).
        rightbyte 7y ago
        Obvoiusly the best is to not use the energy in the first place, but what renewable ("regrowable") would be better than biomass if heat is what you want?
  - 7y ago
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > climate; not only do batteries perform worse in cold weather, but heating and cooling makes up a significant amount of energy draw. In an ICE bus usually the ICE itself generates waste heat. New Flyer, a major bus maker, is based out of Winnipeg, Canada, and is developing e-buses: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX_LN_f_7rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX_LN_f_7rk * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFI_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFI_Group
jseliger 7y ago
There's also an extremely valuable noise externality. If you live in a city (I do), you hear lots of buses roar like dragons, which is unpleasant, to say the least, for people outside the bus, and not that pleasant for people inside the bus. The other day I had one of those uncanny experiences when I was walking along, and there was a bus coming down the street, but I could tell something was "wrong." It took me a moment to realize that it wasn't making hideous engine noises because it was electric! Little things may also improve bus uptake, like the lack of noise pollution.
- graeme 7y ago
  Thought of this. Regular buses drown out whatever music/podcast I'm listening to, and terrify my dog. A quieter bus is much nicer to ride in too. That's not really a reason to switch on its own. But if electric buses get close, it's an additional point in the balance.
  - tashoecraft 7y ago
    I think we very much ignore the massive negative impact noise makes on our society. ICE vehicles create lots of noise that is massively disrupting our sleep in cities. Quieter cities should have a good increase in health as our citizens sleep more soundly.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      I can't say that the sound of ICEs bothers me much. I can say that about police/ambulance sirens, tire screeches or random idiots shouting nonsense.
      - _delirium 7y ago
        A least where I live, there is a ton of honking, too, usually for pretty trivial reasons, which is a bigger contribution of cars to noise pollution than their actual engines. I wish it cost $0.50 or something to honk a car horn.
Alupis 7y ago
Pure second-hand anecdote, but my father is in management at our local regional transportation company (covers buses, lightrail, and more). We're not a small city. They're experimenting with an electric bus right now - but so far it's been a nightmare. Range is the primary problem, lasting less than a full route, sometimes not even lasting over an hour after a full charge. This has resulted in having to tow the bus back to the shop several times. Even with removable batteries, you'd have to have a lot of these lying around, and a lot more buses running shorter routes, to compensate. Their CNG buses just don't have this problem, and produce largely water vapor as their combustion bi-product.
- r00fus 7y ago
  Which vendor is supplying those buses? Sounds like your unit may be malfunctioning if that's nowhere near spec, or you have extreme weather conditions.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Alupis 7y ago
    The vendor is GreenPower Motor Co. Inc.'s EV Star mini-buses. They bought 6 of them for testing. I think the problem is the terrain, distance in the routes, and expected load. "Out of the box" it looks like they're capable of 100-150 miles, but from what he said, they weren't getting those numbers even on a good day. From that experience, and from his attitude towards them. I doubt they'll be eager to try out the full sized versions. The CNG buses they currently run are pretty darn clean, and cheap to operate as it is. So electric will have to be quite a bit better in order to convince them to switch.
    - dzhiurgis 7y ago
      Wait what. They bought 6 of them before doing a test ride???
      - 7y ago

bobthepanda 7y ago

The main issue right now is range anxiety. In today's world, a diesel bus is able to run for an entire day, doing route(s) back and forth without going back to the depot for refueling and charging. This can be true for an electric bus, but in general the range is not longer, and depends on stuff like - elevation changes in the route - climate; not only do batteries perform worse in cold weather, but heating and cooling makes up a significant amount of energy draw. In an ICE bus usually the ICE itself generates waste heat. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-battery-recharge-new-flyer-byd-proterra-beb/577954/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-... > Similarly, the Minnesota source claimed that over the three-week trial, electricity consumption was 70 percent heating and only 30 percent motion. > Wright said (as of early fall) that Moscow’s trial routes for BEBs—trolleybus Routes 73, 76, 80, and 83—have had to use more buses just to run the same service, pointing to before and after slides. The four routes appear to have gone from 46 trolleybuses to 82 BEBs without any increase in service frequency, presumably because BEBs have considerable down time for midday charging. That incurs a lot of additional costs: - buses not in service while driving to and from charging points are personnel and vehicle hours that cost money, especially if after charging you need to be able to place the driver in a bus actually going into service - you are maintaining and storing a much larger fleet of buses now Until an electric bus can be made that can run a full day without charging, costs will rise for electric bus adopters.

rightbyte 7y ago
You can charge the busses at the endstation with a inverted "train roof thing" for 5 min/45 min drive. Heating should not really be a problem. You should use some open flame heater with e.g. gas, wood spill etc for that not high quality electricity or gasoline. (Sorry swedish but look at the picture of the setup) https://www.bussmagasinet.se/2018/03/premiardags-i-ostersund-for-scanias-elbussar/ https://www.bussmagasinet.se/2018/03/premiardags-i-ostersund...
- jefft255 7y ago
  I am extremely skeptical about your open flame idea, especially from a security standpoint and temperature control/maintenance. Also, if as another poster says 70% of the energy goes to heating then why replace this with a very dirty energy source? Kinda defeats the purpose.
  - rightbyte 7y ago
    Ye, maybe I should have written enclosed open flame. I meant some sort of protected open flame heating a tube of water. Is burner the correct term? Having a auxiliary diesel burner with water as medium is standard practice in the area. The buses have so large windows that the heating power is quite ridiculous. Maybe EV-buses need smaller windows? I tried to figure out how the buses and the article are heated and another article states electricity and oil burner when it's quite cold. (https://www.jamtkraft.se/om-jamtkraft/nyhetsrum/stadsbussar-laddade-med-fornybar-el/ https://www.jamtkraft.se/om-jamtkraft/nyhetsrum/stadsbussar-...) I don't think it's reasonable to heat them only with electricity in that climate. Maybe a wood pellet burner could be used if one is made for automotive use? I wonder if the pellets would bounce around too much ... probably only good enough in rural areas where there would be no smog problems. The specification demands on heating oil is lower, so you could make it from only tall oil (tree oil). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_oil
    - bobthepanda 7y ago
      Biomass or biofuel being renewable or good for the environment is debatable at best, especially when considering unintended consequences (like Brazilian rainforests getting slashed for biofuel crops).
      - rightbyte 7y ago
        Obvoiusly the best is to not use the energy in the first place, but what renewable ("regrowable") would be better than biomass if heat is what you want?
- 7y ago
throw0101a 7y ago
> climate; not only do batteries perform worse in cold weather, but heating and cooling makes up a significant amount of energy draw. In an ICE bus usually the ICE itself generates waste heat. New Flyer, a major bus maker, is based out of Winnipeg, Canada, and is developing e-buses: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX_LN_f_7rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX_LN_f_7rk * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFI_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFI_Group

jseliger 7y ago

There's also an extremely valuable noise externality. If you live in a city (I do), you hear lots of buses roar like dragons, which is unpleasant, to say the least, for people outside the bus, and not that pleasant for people inside the bus. The other day I had one of those uncanny experiences when I was walking along, and there was a bus coming down the street, but I could tell something was "wrong." It took me a moment to realize that it wasn't making hideous engine noises because it was electric! Little things may also improve bus uptake, like the lack of noise pollution.

graeme 7y ago
Thought of this. Regular buses drown out whatever music/podcast I'm listening to, and terrify my dog. A quieter bus is much nicer to ride in too. That's not really a reason to switch on its own. But if electric buses get close, it's an additional point in the balance.
- tashoecraft 7y ago
  I think we very much ignore the massive negative impact noise makes on our society. ICE vehicles create lots of noise that is massively disrupting our sleep in cities. Quieter cities should have a good increase in health as our citizens sleep more soundly.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    I can't say that the sound of ICEs bothers me much. I can say that about police/ambulance sirens, tire screeches or random idiots shouting nonsense.
    - _delirium 7y ago
      A least where I live, there is a ton of honking, too, usually for pretty trivial reasons, which is a bigger contribution of cars to noise pollution than their actual engines. I wish it cost $0.50 or something to honk a car horn.

Alupis 7y ago

Pure second-hand anecdote, but my father is in management at our local regional transportation company (covers buses, lightrail, and more). We're not a small city. They're experimenting with an electric bus right now - but so far it's been a nightmare. Range is the primary problem, lasting less than a full route, sometimes not even lasting over an hour after a full charge. This has resulted in having to tow the bus back to the shop several times. Even with removable batteries, you'd have to have a lot of these lying around, and a lot more buses running shorter routes, to compensate. Their CNG buses just don't have this problem, and produce largely water vapor as their combustion bi-product.

r00fus 7y ago
Which vendor is supplying those buses? Sounds like your unit may be malfunctioning if that's nowhere near spec, or you have extreme weather conditions.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Alupis 7y ago
  The vendor is GreenPower Motor Co. Inc.'s EV Star mini-buses. They bought 6 of them for testing. I think the problem is the terrain, distance in the routes, and expected load. "Out of the box" it looks like they're capable of 100-150 miles, but from what he said, they weren't getting those numbers even on a good day. From that experience, and from his attitude towards them. I doubt they'll be eager to try out the full sized versions. The CNG buses they currently run are pretty darn clean, and cheap to operate as it is. So electric will have to be quite a bit better in order to convince them to switch.
  - dzhiurgis 7y ago
    Wait what. They bought 6 of them before doing a test ride???
    - 7y ago