3 ms·

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence

by rb808 7y ago

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

decoyworker 7y ago
Defense?
nobrains 7y ago
That sounds like a bad checklist. Some improvements that can be done: 1. Divide the checklist into "required", "lower priority" and "optional" sections. Will help in just focusing on "required" for time critical implementations, and tackle the rest later if needed. 2. Eliminate requiring evidence and start trusting. If trust is broken (found via audit) then take action. Don't penalize everyone for the mistakes of a few. 3. Add examples for vague cases. Having pre-polulated dropdowns are better than open ended questions. Just add a comments column / field if needed. 4. 200 questions? Seems like overkill. And if all are necessary, then make sure management knows the time that it will take to fill, verify, rectify and submit that sheet.
epalm 7y ago
So what you actually hate are "bad checklists".
- ukj 7y ago
  Do you have a good checklist for writing good checklists?
  - mschnell 7y ago
    The Gawande book (Checklist Manifesto) contains one. A few points from my notes: - distinguish Read-Do- - Pause-Points - Read-Do vs. Do-Confirm - 5--9 items - Only killer items - No clutter and unnecessary colors - Wording simple and exact - Use language of the profession - Fit on one page - Has to be tested in the real world - Also don’t forget Communication checks
matwood 7y ago
I would got so far to say that you're not even dealing with checklists anymore. Almost all my checklist items are yes/no. Is X done? Yes/No. Is a value between Y-Z? Yes/No. Checklists are not meant for vague questions. Questions that irrelevant should be removed from the checklist. When things are found that have been missed, they should be added. When used properly they do remove stress and free up mental space. If you travel a lot, making a checklist of what to pack makes it so much easier to leave the house.
memco 7y ago
Last time checklists came up on HN someone linked to a talk by Atul Gawanda about the checklist manifesto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfl8Xt8W09A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfl8Xt8W09A. He differentiates good and bad checklists: sounds like those are bad checklists you’re working with. But not all checklists are bad.
mopsi 7y ago
Checklists used in aviation do not have questions or anything else that needs much thinking. They are lists of bullet points for tasks that need to be done in a particular order without missing any steps, eg: IGNITION - OFF, FUEL LEVER - CUTOFF, BRAKES - SET, BATTERY - OFF.

by rb808 7y ago

decoyworker 7y ago

Defense?

nobrains 7y ago

That sounds like a bad checklist. Some improvements that can be done: 1. Divide the checklist into "required", "lower priority" and "optional" sections. Will help in just focusing on "required" for time critical implementations, and tackle the rest later if needed. 2. Eliminate requiring evidence and start trusting. If trust is broken (found via audit) then take action. Don't penalize everyone for the mistakes of a few. 3. Add examples for vague cases. Having pre-polulated dropdowns are better than open ended questions. Just add a comments column / field if needed. 4. 200 questions? Seems like overkill. And if all are necessary, then make sure management knows the time that it will take to fill, verify, rectify and submit that sheet.

epalm 7y ago

So what you actually hate are "bad checklists".

ukj 7y ago
Do you have a good checklist for writing good checklists?
- mschnell 7y ago
  The Gawande book (Checklist Manifesto) contains one. A few points from my notes: - distinguish Read-Do- - Pause-Points - Read-Do vs. Do-Confirm - 5--9 items - Only killer items - No clutter and unnecessary colors - Wording simple and exact - Use language of the profession - Fit on one page - Has to be tested in the real world - Also don’t forget Communication checks

matwood 7y ago

I would got so far to say that you're not even dealing with checklists anymore. Almost all my checklist items are yes/no. Is X done? Yes/No. Is a value between Y-Z? Yes/No. Checklists are not meant for vague questions. Questions that irrelevant should be removed from the checklist. When things are found that have been missed, they should be added. When used properly they do remove stress and free up mental space. If you travel a lot, making a checklist of what to pack makes it so much easier to leave the house.

memco 7y ago

Last time checklists came up on HN someone linked to a talk by Atul Gawanda about the checklist manifesto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfl8Xt8W09A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfl8Xt8W09A. He differentiates good and bad checklists: sounds like those are bad checklists you’re working with. But not all checklists are bad.

mopsi 7y ago

Checklists used in aviation do not have questions or anything else that needs much thinking. They are lists of bullet points for tasks that need to be done in a particular order without missing any steps, eg: IGNITION - OFF, FUEL LEVER - CUTOFF, BRAKES - SET, BATTERY - OFF.