8 ms·

Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

123 points by xd1936 7y ago

moreentropy 7y ago
Private messages, relaying for 3rd parties and encryption are prohibited in Ham Radio, so thinking about (international) transactions over ham radio is just plain bullshit. This is the first thing every licensed Ham learns. What you're looking at here are licensed commercial radio services.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ignaloidas 7y ago
  Bitcoin transaction is basically a broadcast, which you can analyze freely. No decryption, just encoding and signing.
  - sciurus 7y ago
    Broadcasts are prohibited in ham radio. For the US, see https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1a361a6eb3d1594e6a347ce0e363b533&mc=true&node=pt47.5.97&rgn=div5#se47.5.97_1113 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1a361a6eb3d1594e6a... > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules;
    - ignaloidas 7y ago
      >>>Private messages (...) are prohibited in Ham Radio > Broadcasts are also prohibited in ham radio. Wait what? Isn't any message either broadcast or private?
      - sciurus 7y ago
        No, it's either one-way or two-way. One-way is usually prohibited except in a few case, two-way is usually fine unless it violates one of the prohibitions like encryption. Your two-way communications using ham radio are public, not private.
        jkoberg 7y ago
        "Broadcast" is defined as "transmissions for the consumption by the general public", at least in the US. Not one-way vs two-way.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        A two-way conversation that involves short periods of what's technically "broadcasting" is very different from "tune in at 10pm to hear me talk for an hour".
      - dunham 7y ago
        It seems broadcasting is prohibited, but broadcasting is defined as: > (10) Broadcasting. Transmissions intended for reception by the general public, either direct or relayed. Edit: quote is take from "Definitions" section of sciurus link.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Also a lot of messages in the bitcoin blockchain are encrypted Edit: https://github.com/barisser/bitcrypt https://github.com/barisser/bitcrypt Must be others too
- gravypod 7y ago
  > relaying for 3rd parties That's not against the rules. The Amateur Radio Relay League (ARRL) gets it's name for doing this. It's illegal to hide these messages or to use them for a commercial purpose. Original HAMs used to do radio telegrams (radiograms) for the public [0]. [0] - http://www.ncarrl.org/nets/mes_form.html http://www.ncarrl.org/nets/mes_form.html
  - strawberryfan 7y ago
    > Original HAMs used to do radio telegrams (radiograms) for the public HAMs still do this. Messages from people isolated in Puerto Rico by hurricane Maria were relayed to the US mainland via HAM radio operators on the island. For some time that was the only thing available.
ihuman 7y ago
I don't think this is allowed under USA Amateur radio rules. > §97.113 Prohibited transmissions. > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that communications directly related to the immediate safety of human life or the protection of property may be provided by amateur stations to broadcasters for dissemination to the public where no other means of communication is reasonably available before or at the time of the event. https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3fe986fb082211e7284fe51ba0367f0a&node=47:5.0.1.1.6&rgn=div5 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3fe986fb082211e728...
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Or else what?
  - ihuman 7y ago
    If you're a registered ham, the FCC has your address, so they can fine you or revoke the license.
    - snazz 7y ago
      And if you’re not, registered hams make a game out of finding particularly egregious pirate stations and reporting them to the FCC.
      - westmeal 7y ago
        Why do they do it though? It's not like the FCC is going to pay them for their time... I suppose if someone is really broadcasting garbage and disrupting communications then I can see the issue.
        crankylinuxuser 7y ago
_rrnv 7y ago
I find it funny that so often so many commenters on "Hacker" News are terrified of breaking the rules... Also, there's plenty of world outside of USA.
- arnoooooo 7y ago
  While I agree with your first comment, most ham radio rules are international.
  - jtms 7y ago
    I know next to nothing about ham radio, but I’m curious... who would enforce the rules at an international level?
    - jimktrains2 7y ago
      Each individual country is expected to enforce the rules on its own citizens. The FCC does so here in the US. If I remember right, but am on my phone, there are countries that are not party to the international rules (or don't have agreements with the us? I'm fuzzy) and (us) hams are not supposed to deliberately contact operators in those countries.
    - robear 7y ago
      The International Telecommunication Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Telecommunication_Union)is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Telecommunicatio... the body that governs these things at the international level. Individual countries implement decisions taken at the ITU through laws and policy. Individual countries take care of enforcement. For instance, in the USA, that would be the FCC.
- vvvij 7y ago
  Well, most people here are corporate and/or state bootlickers. I'm sorry you've been duped by this website's name. Regarding their USA-centrism, you shouldn't be surprised, after all it's mostly a Sillicon Valley hivemind, take that as you will. I suggest searching greener pastures.
Stratoscope 7y ago
Much of the article is about Brian Goss's setup. Goss is not using ham radio. He is receiving satellite broadcasts and re-transmitting them with a goTenna device into the goTenna mesh network. goTenna is a Part 15 (unlicensed) device, like a Wi-Fi router or Bluetooth device. It does not transmit on Amateur Radio frequencies. Unless I missed something, there is no connection with ham radio here. The article also mentions how Elaine Ou sent a Lightning payment over the 40 meter amateur radio band. This may have been a violation of the Part 97 Amateur Radio regulations, as noted by other commenters.
- kayfox 7y ago
  It may be a violation if it involved a business transaction that was not related to ham radio equipment. Buying, selling and trading equipment related to ham radio is the only exception to the rule against business transactions that I am aware of.
  - Stratoscope 7y ago
    The exception you're referring to is this one in Part 97.113 (3), which is part of a list of prohibited communications: (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer. Amateur operators may, however, notify other amateur operators of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2002-title47-vol5/pdf/CFR-2002-title47-vol5-sec97-113.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2002-title47-vol5/pd... It appears that the exception is limitied to notifying other amateurs of equipment for sale or trade, not making the actual payment over the air. For example, if I got a one-time virtual credit card number and read it over the air to another amateur to pay for equipment, I don't believe that would fall under this exception, so it would be prohibited.
    - jimktrains2 7y ago
      Especially if it was a low value transaction or a transaction between two accounts held by the same person, they could argue it falls under experimentation, I guess?
jtms 7y ago
Interesting article, but I think Wired has to be one of my least favorite places to read something on the web. The performance is bad, there is popping/jarring of the viewport as content shifts around, intrusive pop ups, and just a generally high amount of bloat. I’m starting to feel like the old man shaking his fist at the clouds, but can we just go back to more simple pages without all this cruft?
- glenneroo 7y ago
  I don't have any of the issues you are experiencing. I'm using Firefox, AdBlock Origin, Privacy Badger and containers and I don't see any ads, the page is plenty fast, no popping/jarring content.
  - jtms 7y ago
    On desktop or mobile?
    - glenneroo 7y ago
      Desktop. Where are you having problems?
      - jtms 7y ago
        Mobile (iOS). It’s a nightmare experience. If they had built their page correctly it would be consistent across both.
nvk 7y ago
I was the one who made the first transmission mentioned on the article. AMA https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1101518677910810624 https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1101518677910810624 (and this one precedes that one https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1095354354289135617 https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1095354354289135617)
- zrobotics 7y ago
  Ok, I'll bite: mind addressing the legality issues many of the other commenter have brought up? Because this looks like a great way to get a FCC fine.
  - nvk 7y ago
    1. I'm not in the USA and i'm licensed. You could say the ITU may take issue. 2. The spirit of the law is in regards to actual financial interest, this were meaningless amounts and also testnet. 3. Transactions were not actually done over Ham, the transaction data was relayed over ham and broadcasted via internet. (long history of HAM 3rd party message relay). 4. No encrypted messages were transmitted. (and encryption is allowed as long as the cypher is public) 5. The spirit of ham is technical experimentation. 6. These tests were intended for use in countries where the laws don't matter and or in emergencies. In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages. I feel like most rhetoric around that is usual internet-lawyering. If Wired care to contact for comment there would have been some context added.
    - jkoberg 7y ago
      > "in countries where the laws don't matter" Race-to-the-bottom thinking, poor ethical reasoning, and just an excuse to engage in behavior frowned upon by the community. > "In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages." HAHAH no. "Emergency" is clearly defined and doesn't mean "can't reach my ATM". Executing your bitcoin transaction does not save life or limb.
      - 7y ago
djbelieny 7y ago
Funny thing, out of the blue I decided to take practice tests for a ham license last night. Took the practice test about 12 times and got passing score 7 times. Opened HN today and this is one of the top articles... Interesting coincidence.
- ahje 7y ago
  The amount of HAM/radio-related topics on HN has definitely gotten me interested. Time for a new hobby? :)
  - bwigfield 7y ago
    Absolutely. Its a blast and a great way to meet other technical minded folk or aren't necessarily the same you'd run into just doing programming type stuff.
- JudgeWapner 7y ago
  don't do it. my roommate has an HF rig and looks boring af. couple grand worth of gear so they can key down, say "K2185B6 broadcasting from $LOCATION_1", 5 seconds later someone else says "hi K2185B6, lound and clear. This is K8407W4 from $LOCATION_2". rinse, repeat
  - ryanmercer 7y ago
    Basically this. I was all like "yeah man I want to get a license" then I studied some, decided I couldn't afford the gear. Couple years later, oh hey man I'm gonna do this this time, money is better now and stuff, started studying agian and bought a cheap baofeng just to listen. Spent about 15 minutes listening to a repeater. "Jesus, these people are abrasive as best, all they are doing is saying their call over and over and complaining" Stopped studying, couple weeks later was at a friend's house and near a different repeater, same stuff different people. Now I just keep the battery maintained and it tuned to a weather broadcast in the event I lose power during a storm. I mean, in the event of a natural disaster it's pretty cool and you can help replay information and be of use to your community but ehhhh it's an awfully expensive hobby for that unless you want to just buy a cheap handheld and have no range whatsoever since you have an antenna the size of a drinking straw a few inches away from your body.
upofadown 7y ago
There are some claims here that encryption is illegal over amateur radio. That is not true in general. For example, this is what the FCC prohibits in their rules: >messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning ... which can be read here: * http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/March%208,%202018.pdf http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/March%208,%202018.... So ultimate intent is what matters. A test bitcoin transaction is probably legal even if it were somehow incidentally encrypted.

123 points by xd1936 7y ago

Private messages, relaying for 3rd parties and encryption are prohibited in Ham Radio, so thinking about (international) transactions over ham radio is just plain bullshit. This is the first thing every licensed Ham learns. What you're looking at here are licensed commercial radio services.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ignaloidas 7y ago
Bitcoin transaction is basically a broadcast, which you can analyze freely. No decryption, just encoding and signing.
- sciurus 7y ago
  Broadcasts are prohibited in ham radio. For the US, see https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1a361a6eb3d1594e6a347ce0e363b533&mc=true&node=pt47.5.97&rgn=div5#se47.5.97_1113 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1a361a6eb3d1594e6a... > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules;
  - ignaloidas 7y ago
    >>>Private messages (...) are prohibited in Ham Radio > Broadcasts are also prohibited in ham radio. Wait what? Isn't any message either broadcast or private?
    - sciurus 7y ago
      No, it's either one-way or two-way. One-way is usually prohibited except in a few case, two-way is usually fine unless it violates one of the prohibitions like encryption. Your two-way communications using ham radio are public, not private.
      - jkoberg 7y ago
        "Broadcast" is defined as "transmissions for the consumption by the general public", at least in the US. Not one-way vs two-way.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      A two-way conversation that involves short periods of what's technically "broadcasting" is very different from "tune in at 10pm to hear me talk for an hour".
    - dunham 7y ago
      It seems broadcasting is prohibited, but broadcasting is defined as: > (10) Broadcasting. Transmissions intended for reception by the general public, either direct or relayed. Edit: quote is take from "Definitions" section of sciurus link.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Also a lot of messages in the bitcoin blockchain are encrypted Edit: https://github.com/barisser/bitcrypt https://github.com/barisser/bitcrypt Must be others too
gravypod 7y ago
> relaying for 3rd parties That's not against the rules. The Amateur Radio Relay League (ARRL) gets it's name for doing this. It's illegal to hide these messages or to use them for a commercial purpose. Original HAMs used to do radio telegrams (radiograms) for the public [0]. [0] - http://www.ncarrl.org/nets/mes_form.html http://www.ncarrl.org/nets/mes_form.html
- strawberryfan 7y ago
  > Original HAMs used to do radio telegrams (radiograms) for the public HAMs still do this. Messages from people isolated in Puerto Rico by hurricane Maria were relayed to the US mainland via HAM radio operators on the island. For some time that was the only thing available.

ihuman 7y ago

I don't think this is allowed under USA Amateur radio rules. > §97.113 Prohibited transmissions. > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that communications directly related to the immediate safety of human life or the protection of property may be provided by amateur stations to broadcasters for dissemination to the public where no other means of communication is reasonably available before or at the time of the event. https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3fe986fb082211e7284fe51ba0367f0a&node=47:5.0.1.1.6&rgn=div5 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3fe986fb082211e728...

rolltiide 7y ago
Or else what?
- ihuman 7y ago
  If you're a registered ham, the FCC has your address, so they can fine you or revoke the license.
  - snazz 7y ago
    And if you’re not, registered hams make a game out of finding particularly egregious pirate stations and reporting them to the FCC.
    - westmeal 7y ago
      Why do they do it though? It's not like the FCC is going to pay them for their time... I suppose if someone is really broadcasting garbage and disrupting communications then I can see the issue.
      - crankylinuxuser 7y ago

_rrnv 7y ago

I find it funny that so often so many commenters on "Hacker" News are terrified of breaking the rules... Also, there's plenty of world outside of USA.

arnoooooo 7y ago
While I agree with your first comment, most ham radio rules are international.
- jtms 7y ago
  I know next to nothing about ham radio, but I’m curious... who would enforce the rules at an international level?
  - jimktrains2 7y ago
    Each individual country is expected to enforce the rules on its own citizens. The FCC does so here in the US. If I remember right, but am on my phone, there are countries that are not party to the international rules (or don't have agreements with the us? I'm fuzzy) and (us) hams are not supposed to deliberately contact operators in those countries.
  - robear 7y ago
    The International Telecommunication Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Telecommunication_Union)is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Telecommunicatio... the body that governs these things at the international level. Individual countries implement decisions taken at the ITU through laws and policy. Individual countries take care of enforcement. For instance, in the USA, that would be the FCC.
vvvij 7y ago
Well, most people here are corporate and/or state bootlickers. I'm sorry you've been duped by this website's name. Regarding their USA-centrism, you shouldn't be surprised, after all it's mostly a Sillicon Valley hivemind, take that as you will. I suggest searching greener pastures.

Stratoscope 7y ago

Much of the article is about Brian Goss's setup. Goss is not using ham radio. He is receiving satellite broadcasts and re-transmitting them with a goTenna device into the goTenna mesh network. goTenna is a Part 15 (unlicensed) device, like a Wi-Fi router or Bluetooth device. It does not transmit on Amateur Radio frequencies. Unless I missed something, there is no connection with ham radio here. The article also mentions how Elaine Ou sent a Lightning payment over the 40 meter amateur radio band. This may have been a violation of the Part 97 Amateur Radio regulations, as noted by other commenters.

kayfox 7y ago
It may be a violation if it involved a business transaction that was not related to ham radio equipment. Buying, selling and trading equipment related to ham radio is the only exception to the rule against business transactions that I am aware of.
- Stratoscope 7y ago
  The exception you're referring to is this one in Part 97.113 (3), which is part of a list of prohibited communications: (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer. Amateur operators may, however, notify other amateur operators of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2002-title47-vol5/pdf/CFR-2002-title47-vol5-sec97-113.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2002-title47-vol5/pd... It appears that the exception is limitied to notifying other amateurs of equipment for sale or trade, not making the actual payment over the air. For example, if I got a one-time virtual credit card number and read it over the air to another amateur to pay for equipment, I don't believe that would fall under this exception, so it would be prohibited.
  - jimktrains2 7y ago
    Especially if it was a low value transaction or a transaction between two accounts held by the same person, they could argue it falls under experimentation, I guess?

jtms 7y ago

Interesting article, but I think Wired has to be one of my least favorite places to read something on the web. The performance is bad, there is popping/jarring of the viewport as content shifts around, intrusive pop ups, and just a generally high amount of bloat. I’m starting to feel like the old man shaking his fist at the clouds, but can we just go back to more simple pages without all this cruft?

glenneroo 7y ago
I don't have any of the issues you are experiencing. I'm using Firefox, AdBlock Origin, Privacy Badger and containers and I don't see any ads, the page is plenty fast, no popping/jarring content.
- jtms 7y ago
  On desktop or mobile?
  - glenneroo 7y ago
    Desktop. Where are you having problems?
    - jtms 7y ago
      Mobile (iOS). It’s a nightmare experience. If they had built their page correctly it would be consistent across both.

nvk 7y ago

I was the one who made the first transmission mentioned on the article. AMA https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1101518677910810624 https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1101518677910810624 (and this one precedes that one https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1095354354289135617 https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1095354354289135617)

zrobotics 7y ago
Ok, I'll bite: mind addressing the legality issues many of the other commenter have brought up? Because this looks like a great way to get a FCC fine.
- nvk 7y ago
  1. I'm not in the USA and i'm licensed. You could say the ITU may take issue. 2. The spirit of the law is in regards to actual financial interest, this were meaningless amounts and also testnet. 3. Transactions were not actually done over Ham, the transaction data was relayed over ham and broadcasted via internet. (long history of HAM 3rd party message relay). 4. No encrypted messages were transmitted. (and encryption is allowed as long as the cypher is public) 5. The spirit of ham is technical experimentation. 6. These tests were intended for use in countries where the laws don't matter and or in emergencies. In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages. I feel like most rhetoric around that is usual internet-lawyering. If Wired care to contact for comment there would have been some context added.
  - jkoberg 7y ago
    > "in countries where the laws don't matter" Race-to-the-bottom thinking, poor ethical reasoning, and just an excuse to engage in behavior frowned upon by the community. > "In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages." HAHAH no. "Emergency" is clearly defined and doesn't mean "can't reach my ATM". Executing your bitcoin transaction does not save life or limb.
    - 7y ago

djbelieny 7y ago

Funny thing, out of the blue I decided to take practice tests for a ham license last night. Took the practice test about 12 times and got passing score 7 times. Opened HN today and this is one of the top articles... Interesting coincidence.

ahje 7y ago
The amount of HAM/radio-related topics on HN has definitely gotten me interested. Time for a new hobby? :)
- bwigfield 7y ago
  Absolutely. Its a blast and a great way to meet other technical minded folk or aren't necessarily the same you'd run into just doing programming type stuff.
JudgeWapner 7y ago
don't do it. my roommate has an HF rig and looks boring af. couple grand worth of gear so they can key down, say "K2185B6 broadcasting from $LOCATION_1", 5 seconds later someone else says "hi K2185B6, lound and clear. This is K8407W4 from $LOCATION_2". rinse, repeat
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  Basically this. I was all like "yeah man I want to get a license" then I studied some, decided I couldn't afford the gear. Couple years later, oh hey man I'm gonna do this this time, money is better now and stuff, started studying agian and bought a cheap baofeng just to listen. Spent about 15 minutes listening to a repeater. "Jesus, these people are abrasive as best, all they are doing is saying their call over and over and complaining" Stopped studying, couple weeks later was at a friend's house and near a different repeater, same stuff different people. Now I just keep the battery maintained and it tuned to a weather broadcast in the event I lose power during a storm. I mean, in the event of a natural disaster it's pretty cool and you can help replay information and be of use to your community but ehhhh it's an awfully expensive hobby for that unless you want to just buy a cheap handheld and have no range whatsoever since you have an antenna the size of a drinking straw a few inches away from your body.

upofadown 7y ago

There are some claims here that encryption is illegal over amateur radio. That is not true in general. For example, this is what the FCC prohibits in their rules: >messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning ... which can be read here: * http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/March%208,%202018.pdf http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/March%208,%202018.... So ultimate intent is what matters. A test bitcoin transaction is probably legal even if it were somehow incidentally encrypted.