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I wonder if most people buying sneakers as "art collectibles" realize that the shoes suffer inevitable disintegration and crumbling called polyurethane hydrolys

by jasode 7y ago

I wonder if most people buying sneakers as "art collectibles" realize that the shoes suffer inevitable disintegration and crumbling called polyurethane hydrolysis[0][1]. I just learned of this phenomenon last month. I had some brand new unworn shoes that I had meant to donate to a children's home but I forgot about them in a closet for 5 years. When I finally dug them out, the soles were disintegrated. A complete waste of $150. Unless you store the shoes in a special climate controlled jar, it really seems the only use for buying is to actually wear them before the ticking time bomb makes them worthless. [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=shoes+polyurethane+hydrolysis&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=shoes+polyurethane+hydrolysi... [1] some Nike Air Jordan examples (open in new tab to not break the Back button): https://solecollector.com/news/2016/10/worst-sneaker-blow-outs/nike-air-force-180-high https://solecollector.com/news/2016/10/worst-sneaker-blow-ou...

sb8244 7y ago
Wow. I buy shoes but I've never seen this (I buy to wear). Why is it that a shoe which I wear and have had for multiple years doesn't look anything like that? Is it only certain shoes, based on material?
Scoundreller 7y ago
To prevent hydrolysis (literally breaking apart with water) you just need to keep the environment humidity-free. An airtight plastic box and a bed of salt should do the trick.
- cheeze 7y ago
  No need for a bed of salt, just use a dessicant packet.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Same thing. But a kg of table salt, some time in the oven for extra dryness and a free Tyvek envelope makes a massive $1 dessicant packet.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      Modest research suggests that Epsom salts (MgSO4) or some forms of ice-melter (CaCl2) would be better options.
- jasode 7y ago
  In my cursory research, desiccant pack may not actually be a foolproof solution. E.g. in the link[0] of opinions from shoe collectors, do a Ctrl+F search for "silica" and note that the last 2 people say it can harm the shoes. (I'm not saying they're right because it's not easy to tell who is making scientifically valid claims.) [0] open in new tab to avoid breaking the Back button: https://solecollector.com/news/2015/05/how-to-store-sneakers https://solecollector.com/news/2015/05/how-to-store-sneakers
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
blueline 7y ago
yeah id say the vast majority of sneakerheads are very aware. ive seen hundreds of crumbled sole jordan pics over the years on forums, facebook groups, etc.
benj111 7y ago
Ah so that's why my old cheap 'snow' shoes (cheapy foam gives better grip than rubber in snow and ice) disintegrated going to the shop and back last winter.
will_brown 7y ago
Maybe Satoshi should have built in such a feature into bitcoin (you don’t use it you lose it). That would have been a much more interesting dynamic (maybe) insofar as the original concept of P2P cash which morphed into digital gold/store of value (ie no incentive to spend, create a market/economy).
- chipperyman573 7y ago
  Because bitcoin is inherently anonymous, it'd be very difficult (impossible?) to prevent someone from making a new address and just bouncing the coins around. It's an interesting idea, though.
  - will_brown 7y ago
    I thought about that, and it’s just spit balling something off the cuff, but address to address self-spending may have positive impacts on the network vis-a-vis additional transaction fees for miners.
  - petronio 7y ago
    I think that's fine, because then you know that at least the wallets still exist. I wonder how many bitcoins are forever gone from the early days when they were literally cheaper than dirt. I know I had some and failed to backup the wallet properly.
    - mhh__ 7y ago
      There's several million £s worth in a landfill site in England somewhere
- siavosh 7y ago
  The built in mechanism for this incentive is inflation, but bitcoin is deflationary as you observe.
- pigeons 7y ago
  This is the demurrage dynamic in freicoin (now tradecraft - https://github.com/tradecraftio/tradecraft https://github.com/tradecraftio/tradecraft) from bitcoin core developers Mark Friedenbach and Jorge Timon.
bksenior 7y ago
Its a perfect feature. It reduces supply and creates incredible rarity amongst ones that were treated poorly. Its why a ton of war time artists are worth so much more than their peers who were prolific slightly after. Shit gets destroyed, those that dont become things of legend. It's also a large reason baseball cards from the 50s and 60s are MUCH more valuable than the following gens.
- blueline 7y ago
  meh, i think the timescale doesn't work out for this to be the case for sneakers. the only sorts of sneakers i can think of that are sought after where a huge portion of them have disintegrating soles are like 1985 original Jordan 1s and to a much lesser extent some of the original pairs of the next few models (2s, 3s, 4s) there is definitely big importance placed on condition in the collector community, but for the vast majority of it comes down to whether the shoe was worn at all, not whether it's literally crumbling into pieces from age. now that the market for this stuff is so huge, maybe another 10-15 years down the line you'll be spot on though.

by jasode 7y ago

sb8244 7y ago

Wow. I buy shoes but I've never seen this (I buy to wear). Why is it that a shoe which I wear and have had for multiple years doesn't look anything like that? Is it only certain shoes, based on material?

Scoundreller 7y ago

To prevent hydrolysis (literally breaking apart with water) you just need to keep the environment humidity-free. An airtight plastic box and a bed of salt should do the trick.

cheeze 7y ago
No need for a bed of salt, just use a dessicant packet.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Same thing. But a kg of table salt, some time in the oven for extra dryness and a free Tyvek envelope makes a massive $1 dessicant packet.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Modest research suggests that Epsom salts (MgSO4) or some forms of ice-melter (CaCl2) would be better options.
jasode 7y ago
In my cursory research, desiccant pack may not actually be a foolproof solution. E.g. in the link[0] of opinions from shoe collectors, do a Ctrl+F search for "silica" and note that the last 2 people say it can harm the shoes. (I'm not saying they're right because it's not easy to tell who is making scientifically valid claims.) [0] open in new tab to avoid breaking the Back button: https://solecollector.com/news/2015/05/how-to-store-sneakers https://solecollector.com/news/2015/05/how-to-store-sneakers

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

blueline 7y ago

yeah id say the vast majority of sneakerheads are very aware. ive seen hundreds of crumbled sole jordan pics over the years on forums, facebook groups, etc.

benj111 7y ago

Ah so that's why my old cheap 'snow' shoes (cheapy foam gives better grip than rubber in snow and ice) disintegrated going to the shop and back last winter.

will_brown 7y ago

Maybe Satoshi should have built in such a feature into bitcoin (you don’t use it you lose it). That would have been a much more interesting dynamic (maybe) insofar as the original concept of P2P cash which morphed into digital gold/store of value (ie no incentive to spend, create a market/economy).

chipperyman573 7y ago
Because bitcoin is inherently anonymous, it'd be very difficult (impossible?) to prevent someone from making a new address and just bouncing the coins around. It's an interesting idea, though.
- will_brown 7y ago
  I thought about that, and it’s just spit balling something off the cuff, but address to address self-spending may have positive impacts on the network vis-a-vis additional transaction fees for miners.
- petronio 7y ago
  I think that's fine, because then you know that at least the wallets still exist. I wonder how many bitcoins are forever gone from the early days when they were literally cheaper than dirt. I know I had some and failed to backup the wallet properly.
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    There's several million £s worth in a landfill site in England somewhere
siavosh 7y ago
The built in mechanism for this incentive is inflation, but bitcoin is deflationary as you observe.
pigeons 7y ago
This is the demurrage dynamic in freicoin (now tradecraft - https://github.com/tradecraftio/tradecraft https://github.com/tradecraftio/tradecraft) from bitcoin core developers Mark Friedenbach and Jorge Timon.

bksenior 7y ago

Its a perfect feature. It reduces supply and creates incredible rarity amongst ones that were treated poorly. Its why a ton of war time artists are worth so much more than their peers who were prolific slightly after. Shit gets destroyed, those that dont become things of legend. It's also a large reason baseball cards from the 50s and 60s are MUCH more valuable than the following gens.

blueline 7y ago
meh, i think the timescale doesn't work out for this to be the case for sneakers. the only sorts of sneakers i can think of that are sought after where a huge portion of them have disintegrating soles are like 1985 original Jordan 1s and to a much lesser extent some of the original pairs of the next few models (2s, 3s, 4s) there is definitely big importance placed on condition in the collector community, but for the vast majority of it comes down to whether the shoe was worn at all, not whether it's literally crumbling into pieces from age. now that the market for this stuff is so huge, maybe another 10-15 years down the line you'll be spot on though.