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The US/UK/EU need to push back hard. They are probably the only places that will actually hold their citizens accountable for cybercrime. Russians and Chinese c

by wil421 7y ago

The US/UK/EU need to push back hard. They are probably the only places that will actually hold their citizens accountable for cybercrime. Russians and Chinese can hide behind no extradition. The west needs to draw lines, create treaties, create legal definitions and frameworks. It all needs to be done in a very public forum. Not secret courts. If the lines are crossed there needs to be real and serious consequences that aren’t all for show like the recent Russian and Iranian sanctions. For god sakes no limited strikes.

adventured 7y ago
Those Iranian sanctions aren't for show. I don't think the Iranians share your perspective at all. They're brutally crushing the Iranian economy at the moment and causing the regime to lash out aggressively. The Russian sanctions are more reasonably in the for show category by comparison. Their oil output has collapsed by 50%, from roughly 4m barrels per day. Their currency has lost 2/3 of its value versus the dollar and is near record lows. Inflation has skyrocketed, around 30% in 2018 and perhaps 40% in 2019. It's hammering living standards: "In the past 12 months, the cost of red meat and poultry has increased by 57%, milk, cheese and eggs by 37%, and vegetables by 47%, according to the Statistical Centre of Iran." 2019-04-29: "Iran’s economy is expected to shrink for the second consecutive year and inflation could reach 40 percent, an International Monetary Fund senior official said, as the country copes with the impact of tighter sanctions imposed by the United States." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-economy-imf/iran-inflation-could-reach-40-percent-this-year-as-economy-shrinks-further-imf-idUSKCN1S509Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-economy-imf/iran-inf... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48119109 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48119109 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/we-are-desperate-economic-crisis-hits-ordinary-iranians https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/we-are-despera... https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Iranians-stock-up-as-US-sanctions-damage-Iranian-economy-569143 https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Iranians-stock-u...
- wil421 7y ago
  I was thinking more serious things than sanctions. For example, if Iran launches a cyber attack on the west like the Saudi-Americo wiper attack we shut off their internet for a few days. Hack our infrastructure, we shut down the whole power grid.
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    > Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World War I and World War II. In the First World War, the Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity during the Rape of Belgium. In World War II, both the Germans and the Japanese carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that occurred at those places.[5] The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice."
    - wil421 7y ago
      Geneva convention seems to be working very well in the Middle East and Russia. Russian used a nerve agent in London and not much happened. They’ve also annexed part of a sovereign nation in Europe. The last time that happened WWII started. They likely provided chemical agents or technical know how to Syria. The Saudis do whatever they please.
      - nyolfen 7y ago
        i don't disagree, except the cw stuff. the US breaks the conventions too (eg waterboarding) but they're still there for a reason. many people, mostly elderly or critically ill, would die in the event of a power grid being shut down. it is effectively indistinguishable from terrorism.
zrav 7y ago
We do have the UN for that. Unfortunately, all permanent members (except possibly France) are guilty of state sponsored cybercrimes, so nothing comes of it, as with many other issues.

by wil421 7y ago

adventured 7y ago

Those Iranian sanctions aren't for show. I don't think the Iranians share your perspective at all. They're brutally crushing the Iranian economy at the moment and causing the regime to lash out aggressively. The Russian sanctions are more reasonably in the for show category by comparison. Their oil output has collapsed by 50%, from roughly 4m barrels per day. Their currency has lost 2/3 of its value versus the dollar and is near record lows. Inflation has skyrocketed, around 30% in 2018 and perhaps 40% in 2019. It's hammering living standards: "In the past 12 months, the cost of red meat and poultry has increased by 57%, milk, cheese and eggs by 37%, and vegetables by 47%, according to the Statistical Centre of Iran." 2019-04-29: "Iran’s economy is expected to shrink for the second consecutive year and inflation could reach 40 percent, an International Monetary Fund senior official said, as the country copes with the impact of tighter sanctions imposed by the United States." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-economy-imf/iran-inflation-could-reach-40-percent-this-year-as-economy-shrinks-further-imf-idUSKCN1S509Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-economy-imf/iran-inf... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48119109 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48119109 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/we-are-desperate-economic-crisis-hits-ordinary-iranians https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/we-are-despera... https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Iranians-stock-up-as-US-sanctions-damage-Iranian-economy-569143 https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Iranians-stock-u...

wil421 7y ago
I was thinking more serious things than sanctions. For example, if Iran launches a cyber attack on the west like the Saudi-Americo wiper attack we shut off their internet for a few days. Hack our infrastructure, we shut down the whole power grid.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  > Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World War I and World War II. In the First World War, the Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity during the Rape of Belgium. In World War II, both the Germans and the Japanese carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that occurred at those places.[5] The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice."
  - wil421 7y ago
    Geneva convention seems to be working very well in the Middle East and Russia. Russian used a nerve agent in London and not much happened. They’ve also annexed part of a sovereign nation in Europe. The last time that happened WWII started. They likely provided chemical agents or technical know how to Syria. The Saudis do whatever they please.
    - nyolfen 7y ago
      i don't disagree, except the cw stuff. the US breaks the conventions too (eg waterboarding) but they're still there for a reason. many people, mostly elderly or critically ill, would die in the event of a power grid being shut down. it is effectively indistinguishable from terrorism.

zrav 7y ago

We do have the UN for that. Unfortunately, all permanent members (except possibly France) are guilty of state sponsored cybercrimes, so nothing comes of it, as with many other issues.