5 ms·

This is a very difficult problem. Aging is emotionally painful. I think it is insane that in our societies (Western, I am not American) we prolong the age of r

by js8 7y ago

This is a very difficult problem. Aging is emotionally painful. I think it is insane that in our societies (Western, I am not American) we prolong the age of retirement. I believe it should be 60, tops. And we should have culture that would celebrate moving to retirement, to make sure that people do not feel useless all of sudden. But it is often hard for, especially really good, people to go into retirement, because you still have a (usually wrong) feeling that you can continue as if they were younger, and they see all the young hacks doing the same mistakes.. So if the society could support these people in giving up, I think it would be helpful for everybody. As the Czech saying goes - stop at the best time. We should do that even if it is a small economic loss.

melling 7y ago
And spend the next 20-40 years hanging out? Hopefully, over the next couple of decades more people reach a healthy 100. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-more-americans-over-age-100-now-and-they-are-living-longer-180957914/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-more-ame...
- sharmi 7y ago
  Some people enjoy retirement. We have a retired army major attending our local python meetup without feel. He learns Python with great enthusiasm. He is now trying to understand cyber security. Having said that, that level of enthusiasm is a rare mindset and signs of indefatigable spirit.
- jackvalentine 7y ago
  As we said to one of the old guys at work who didn't really want to be there anymore, didn't need the money and just hung around for the routine... Join Rotary and volunteer or something. There are loads of things you can do that would make the world better.
  - melling 7y ago
    ...or you could pick a different/another career: Writer, director, fund manager, ... Warren Buffet is still managing a lot of money at 88. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McCullough https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McCullough https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scorsese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scorsese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick
    - magduf 7y ago
      Except all those people started their careers when they were much younger. How many people start a new career at retirement age and actually make it really successful?
- chosenbreed37 7y ago
  > And spend the next 20-40 years hanging out? I think this is a great point. I don't think it detracts from the post in question. But it highlights the observation that many do not seem to have anything meaningful to do outside work. Anecdotally, I've heard of people coming out of retirement because they were bored stiff. I'm wondering whether or not we should develop a broad range of interest and possibly hobbies/vocations that we could transition to in "retirement". Alternatively not retire altogether but transition to a different role more in line with our capabilities as we age.
  - js8 7y ago
    Yes, that's what I was thinking. Just say, when you're 60, and you feel at the peak, now I am going to do something else as a hobby. But again, this goes against our tradition where we celebrate "real work" and not doing something for fun or as a hobby.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  That's exactly what the person you are replying to meant when they said: "And we should have culture that would celebrate moving to retirement, to make sure that people do not feel useless all of sudden." We need something other than just "hanging out".
  - maehwasu 7y ago
    Having other people “celebrate” your moving to retirement is a far cry from having meaningful purpose. I am not suggesting that purpose is only found in work, only that getting others to pat you on the back for being retired doesn’t help much either.
    - js8 7y ago
      By "celebrating", I meant counter the societal pressure to continue to perform. Today, somebody retiring at the peak is considered an (economic) loss. Perhaps it shouldn't be.
      - Majestic121 7y ago
        I might be mistaken, but I think what the parent tries to say is taht while there is societal pressure to 'not be an economic loss', there's also something more personnal about not being able to cope with having nothing to do. A non-negligible amount of retired people just sit at home, depressed, until death, out of a lack of better things to do. Even celebrating their retirement would not make their day less grim.
        js8 7y ago
        I deliberately wasn't specific when I said "So if the society could support these people in giving up". Support can mean many things, for example support them having other hobbies (that do not contribute direct economic value, but rather only enjoyment).
walterstucco 7y ago
More than money or work people need a purpose Retiring at 60 for many would mean losing purpose while their children haven't already formed a family with kids. Adult life becomes later and later in modern western societies I think we should stop thinking at retirement as THE goal Only in the past century, in many places much less than that, has become a thing My grandgrandmother died at 103 and she worked until her last day Happily It's the kind of things you do that need to change while you age, which means not necessarily stop working
synlatexc 7y ago
Retiring at 60 would pose financial challenges for many people in the US. Nearly 20% of 70-year-olds are working now. Source: https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-particip.... For many, this is an economic necessity. For well-heeled surgeons, it may be more of a choice -- the desire for extra financial cushion.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Making a lot of money does not mean you have a lot of money. There are quite a few people who pull down huge salaries, spend it all, and live paycheck to paycheck.
  - Retra 7y ago
    Arguably, it is the best option if you have enough security through insurance; put all your extra cash into some kind of investment.
- js8 7y ago
  > Retiring at 60 would pose financial challenges for many people in the US. Which is frankly insane too. It's not like the wealthiest nation on Earth couldn't support these people.
  - brookside 7y ago
    USA is the 10th wealthiest nation per capita.
  - nradov 7y ago
    Have you actually run the numbers? We could support an earlier retirement age but it would require a major reduction in living standards and higher taxes for everyone else. There's nothing insane about opposing that.
    - barking 7y ago
seszett 7y ago
> you still have a (usually wrong) feeling that you can continue as if they were younger, and they see all the young hacks doing the same mistakes.. So if the society could support these people in giving up, I think it would be helpful for everybody. I think many retiring people in this situation would be okay with having a period of companionship where they would work together with a younger professional until they feel they are able to work on their own, and then retire. It used to be a common practice in the past. But it would be less economical (from a short-sighted point of view) as two persons would have to be paid (even if not a full pay maybe) for the work of just one for some period, and of course there is no obvious way to prevent all kinds of loopholes and bad incentives, so it's just easier to do it like we do now, a local minimum caused by individual-centric policies.
Robotbeat 7y ago
I think phased retirement is the best approach. We see this in academia all the time and also at NASA. There’s a period of time over several years where people start doing part time work, then even after retirement they’re often brought in for consulting. At NASA in particular, it’s been 50 years since Apollo and NASA is trying to go back to the Moon and these old folk have tons of irreplaceable insight. Invaluable, really, and in my opinion their limited lifespan adds (or ought to add) a significant sense of urgency to NASA’s current efforts.
- testvox 7y ago
  Also reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_status
topkai22 7y ago
The data I’ve looked at is surprisingly unclear on whether or not people enjoy retirement versus working. For empowered workers in meaning filled fields, such as surgeons, I could easily see retirement being unsatisfying versus working. Also it makes no sense for society for people to "go out at their best," even if that can be well predicted. If a person is great at 40, even better at 55, and back to great at 70 we shouldn't care they were better 15 years ago, just that they are great today.

by js8 7y ago

melling 7y ago

And spend the next 20-40 years hanging out? Hopefully, over the next couple of decades more people reach a healthy 100. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-more-americans-over-age-100-now-and-they-are-living-longer-180957914/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-more-ame...

sharmi 7y ago
Some people enjoy retirement. We have a retired army major attending our local python meetup without feel. He learns Python with great enthusiasm. He is now trying to understand cyber security. Having said that, that level of enthusiasm is a rare mindset and signs of indefatigable spirit.
jackvalentine 7y ago
As we said to one of the old guys at work who didn't really want to be there anymore, didn't need the money and just hung around for the routine... Join Rotary and volunteer or something. There are loads of things you can do that would make the world better.
- melling 7y ago
  ...or you could pick a different/another career: Writer, director, fund manager, ... Warren Buffet is still managing a lot of money at 88. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McCullough https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McCullough https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scorsese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scorsese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick
  - magduf 7y ago
    Except all those people started their careers when they were much younger. How many people start a new career at retirement age and actually make it really successful?
chosenbreed37 7y ago
> And spend the next 20-40 years hanging out? I think this is a great point. I don't think it detracts from the post in question. But it highlights the observation that many do not seem to have anything meaningful to do outside work. Anecdotally, I've heard of people coming out of retirement because they were bored stiff. I'm wondering whether or not we should develop a broad range of interest and possibly hobbies/vocations that we could transition to in "retirement". Alternatively not retire altogether but transition to a different role more in line with our capabilities as we age.
- js8 7y ago
  Yes, that's what I was thinking. Just say, when you're 60, and you feel at the peak, now I am going to do something else as a hobby. But again, this goes against our tradition where we celebrate "real work" and not doing something for fun or as a hobby.
Ensorceled 7y ago
That's exactly what the person you are replying to meant when they said: "And we should have culture that would celebrate moving to retirement, to make sure that people do not feel useless all of sudden." We need something other than just "hanging out".
- maehwasu 7y ago
  Having other people “celebrate” your moving to retirement is a far cry from having meaningful purpose. I am not suggesting that purpose is only found in work, only that getting others to pat you on the back for being retired doesn’t help much either.
  - js8 7y ago
    By "celebrating", I meant counter the societal pressure to continue to perform. Today, somebody retiring at the peak is considered an (economic) loss. Perhaps it shouldn't be.
    - Majestic121 7y ago
      I might be mistaken, but I think what the parent tries to say is taht while there is societal pressure to 'not be an economic loss', there's also something more personnal about not being able to cope with having nothing to do. A non-negligible amount of retired people just sit at home, depressed, until death, out of a lack of better things to do. Even celebrating their retirement would not make their day less grim.
      - js8 7y ago
        I deliberately wasn't specific when I said "So if the society could support these people in giving up". Support can mean many things, for example support them having other hobbies (that do not contribute direct economic value, but rather only enjoyment).

walterstucco 7y ago

More than money or work people need a purpose Retiring at 60 for many would mean losing purpose while their children haven't already formed a family with kids. Adult life becomes later and later in modern western societies I think we should stop thinking at retirement as THE goal Only in the past century, in many places much less than that, has become a thing My grandgrandmother died at 103 and she worked until her last day Happily It's the kind of things you do that need to change while you age, which means not necessarily stop working

synlatexc 7y ago

Retiring at 60 would pose financial challenges for many people in the US. Nearly 20% of 70-year-olds are working now. Source: https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-particip.... For many, this is an economic necessity. For well-heeled surgeons, it may be more of a choice -- the desire for extra financial cushion.

whatshisface 7y ago
Making a lot of money does not mean you have a lot of money. There are quite a few people who pull down huge salaries, spend it all, and live paycheck to paycheck.
- Retra 7y ago
  Arguably, it is the best option if you have enough security through insurance; put all your extra cash into some kind of investment.
js8 7y ago
> Retiring at 60 would pose financial challenges for many people in the US. Which is frankly insane too. It's not like the wealthiest nation on Earth couldn't support these people.
- brookside 7y ago
  USA is the 10th wealthiest nation per capita.
- nradov 7y ago
  Have you actually run the numbers? We could support an earlier retirement age but it would require a major reduction in living standards and higher taxes for everyone else. There's nothing insane about opposing that.
  - barking 7y ago

seszett 7y ago

> you still have a (usually wrong) feeling that you can continue as if they were younger, and they see all the young hacks doing the same mistakes.. So if the society could support these people in giving up, I think it would be helpful for everybody. I think many retiring people in this situation would be okay with having a period of companionship where they would work together with a younger professional until they feel they are able to work on their own, and then retire. It used to be a common practice in the past. But it would be less economical (from a short-sighted point of view) as two persons would have to be paid (even if not a full pay maybe) for the work of just one for some period, and of course there is no obvious way to prevent all kinds of loopholes and bad incentives, so it's just easier to do it like we do now, a local minimum caused by individual-centric policies.

Robotbeat 7y ago

I think phased retirement is the best approach. We see this in academia all the time and also at NASA. There’s a period of time over several years where people start doing part time work, then even after retirement they’re often brought in for consulting. At NASA in particular, it’s been 50 years since Apollo and NASA is trying to go back to the Moon and these old folk have tons of irreplaceable insight. Invaluable, really, and in my opinion their limited lifespan adds (or ought to add) a significant sense of urgency to NASA’s current efforts.

testvox 7y ago
Also reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_status

topkai22 7y ago

The data I’ve looked at is surprisingly unclear on whether or not people enjoy retirement versus working. For empowered workers in meaning filled fields, such as surgeons, I could easily see retirement being unsatisfying versus working. Also it makes no sense for society for people to "go out at their best," even if that can be well predicted. If a person is great at 40, even better at 55, and back to great at 70 we shouldn't care they were better 15 years ago, just that they are great today.