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>If you're pointing at a blob of 100+ people (like you said, support is also being blamed) then you're not making it personal. Ahh, I see. So it's okay that he

>If you're pointing at a blob of 100+ people (like you said, support is also being blamed) then you're not making it personal. Ahh, I see. So it's okay that he was offensive and insulting, because he was offensive and insulting to many people? It wouldn't have been okay if he was offensive and insulting to only a handful of people, but because it was more than that, it's okay? Is this some weird perversion of "one death is a tragedy, 1000 deaths is a statistic"? He isn't pointing the blame at a large group inside an "opaque" company. He's insulting people. The people at Verizon will know full well that he is talking to them. People that work with the Verizon NOC will know full well that those specific people are being insulted by this CEO. The fact that it was personally directed at multiple people doesn't make it any less personal, it just makes it personal to more people, no matter how much you move the goalposts. > I'm not sure if the vitriol helped exactly but I think Verizon did enough to deserve it that there's no need to berate Cloudflare for the vitriol itself. So it didn't help to berate Verizon, but it was still okay because they "deserved it"? And then you don't apply the same logic to Cloudflare themselves? There absolutely is a need to berate Cloudflare for their unnecessary use of vitriol, especially if you're telling me the bar for berating someone is as low as "it didn't help but that's okay". It's clear at this point that you're moving goalposts and adjusting your own principles in some weird attempt to defend Cloudflare. Cloudflare did nothing positive here, and your attempt to justify their vitriol and maliciousness is telling.

Dylan16807 7y ago
> Is this some weird perversion of "one death is a tragedy, 1000 deaths is a statistic"? Nah. If you deliver 100 insults to 100 people, that's terrible. But if you deliver one insult to a vague blob of 100 people, that barely registers. The amount of insult directed at any specific person is tiny. That's why I'm not bothered by it. > it just makes it personal to more people No. > no matter how much you move the goalposts Really? Someone disagrees with you so they must be moving goalposts? Do better than that. I've been consistent on what I consider personal. Also, I think you're too focused on vitriol. You can single people out and cause them harm while using the nicest and most polite language in the world. The way you target and your underlying meaning is far more important than your choice of words. > So it didn't help to berate Verizon, but it was still okay because they "deserved it"? And then you don't apply the same logic to Cloudflare themselves? There absolutely is a need to berate Cloudflare for their unnecessary use of vitriol, especially if you're telling me the bar for berating someone is as low as "it didn't help but that's okay". Let's put it this way. I regard "impersonal beration" as one tenth the crime of "being obviously and extremely negligent with equipment that can break the internet". And I'm willing to forgive vitriol when it's deserved and impersonal. You don't forgive that, and want to say Cloudflare acted somewhat badly? Okay, sure. You want to claim they are failing as a leader, overcompensating with drastic childish measures to blame someone else for something they could and should have mitigated themselves? I completely disagree.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    That's fair. While I haven't had a huge number of arguments like this, I can only name one or two that resolved successfully. I'll leave things earlier.
dang 7y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Dylan16807 7y ago

> Is this some weird perversion of "one death is a tragedy, 1000 deaths is a statistic"? Nah. If you deliver 100 insults to 100 people, that's terrible. But if you deliver one insult to a vague blob of 100 people, that barely registers. The amount of insult directed at any specific person is tiny. That's why I'm not bothered by it. > it just makes it personal to more people No. > no matter how much you move the goalposts Really? Someone disagrees with you so they must be moving goalposts? Do better than that. I've been consistent on what I consider personal. Also, I think you're too focused on vitriol. You can single people out and cause them harm while using the nicest and most polite language in the world. The way you target and your underlying meaning is far more important than your choice of words. > So it didn't help to berate Verizon, but it was still okay because they "deserved it"? And then you don't apply the same logic to Cloudflare themselves? There absolutely is a need to berate Cloudflare for their unnecessary use of vitriol, especially if you're telling me the bar for berating someone is as low as "it didn't help but that's okay". Let's put it this way. I regard "impersonal beration" as one tenth the crime of "being obviously and extremely negligent with equipment that can break the internet". And I'm willing to forgive vitriol when it's deserved and impersonal. You don't forgive that, and want to say Cloudflare acted somewhat badly? Okay, sure. You want to claim they are failing as a leader, overcompensating with drastic childish measures to blame someone else for something they could and should have mitigated themselves? I completely disagree.

dang 7y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  That's fair. While I haven't had a huge number of arguments like this, I can only name one or two that resolved successfully. I'll leave things earlier.

dang 7y ago

Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html