15 ms·

Possibly unpopular opinion, but IMO to learn a synth it’s best to start with a simple physical subtractive monosynth. Software synths are often built to model

Possibly unpopular opinion, but IMO to learn a synth it’s best to start with a simple physical subtractive monosynth. Software synths are often built to model popular hardware instruments in both sound and interface. So learning the basic concepts on a “real” subtractive synth builds a foundation to learn more. Plus a physical synth is far less distracting than a multitasking device. I find it much easier to create, experiment and learn when a screen is not involved.

flycaliguy 7y ago
Absolutely. There is such a wide variety of cheap analog monosynths, it’s definitely the way to go. For me, the knobs are the most important part. It’s an expressive medium after all, you need to feel the movement.
- bashwizard 7y ago
  I don't know about that. I've sold off an Elektron Analog Four, Elektron Analog Rytm, Elektron Octatrack and an Access Virus Ti 2 less than a year ago and started working exclusivley in the box and using two ableton push 2 as midi controllers and I honestly do not miss my hardware at all. Sure I lose out on some of that analog warmth but I've come pretty close by emulating it with various VSTs.
  - flycaliguy 7y ago
    I was speaking more to learning synths, learning how oscillators sound during detuning, feeling a filter sweep. Feeling out what each step of the subtractive process does with knobs, I would suggest, is a better way to learn. Those are some pricey synths you’ve rocked, not really a learner’s set-up, especially the Elektron sequencer. For me, the ms-20 and the feel of tweaking those knobs is what made the feel of really playing a synth come together. Jamming with a friend on drums. These days, yeah, I actually do most my noodling using the IOS Korg Gadget with my analog keys as a controller/filter bank.
  - louthy 7y ago
    Elektron have possibly to worst user interfaces of any hardware synths or drum machines that I've used. So much menu diving. I ended up selling my Elektron stuff and will never buy from them again. Most other hardware is much more intuitive and interactive.
    - diydsp 7y ago
      I like my MachineDrum. Stuff only goes about 1 level deep. But this Analog Four mkII is driving me crazy because top level functions are not in the "right" places...
      - louthy 7y ago
        Machinedrum was one I sold :)
  - joefourier 7y ago
    My personal experience is kind of inbetween. Analogue monosynths are great as a learning because you are stuck with what you have, and can't easily switch to another VST or scroll between endless presets. Their limitations force you to actually learn how to create sounds, and over time you get an intuitive sense of how to tweak each knob and slider just right in order to get the sound you want. However, VSTs are vastly more convenient and eliminate the annoyances of tuning, physically powering and plugging in a large amount of bulky machines, losing previous specific sounds, and they give you the ability to easily tweak and edit previous recordings. However, you lose the immediate sense of close control over each aspect of the sound. Ideally, what I would like is a physical MIDI controller with an exact map of my favorite analogue VSTs in terms of knobs and controls. My current keyboard does have a few a customization options, but it's rather awkward to map it to the VST each time, and it's not precisely 1:1 as there's not enough knobs, and they're not laid out or labeled in an intuitive manner.
    - onemoresoop 7y ago
      Also advantages of physical instruments are that you map a mental model to the instrument itself and IF the instrument is built properly and has a good workflow after a while you don't need to look at it, muscle memory translates intent to an action, becomes more intuitive and the flow is uninterrupted. The experience is immediate. On the other hand, physical synths take a lot of space, break down, are hard to setup if connected together, some require batteries to keep the settings and patches alive and the battery could sometimes be a pain to reach to and change. I had a Yamaha SY-77, which was amazing by the way, the battery failed and the screen was dim. I gave up attempting to replace it myself, it required taking apart most of the screws and the operation itself was a couple of hours. I started on VSTs but I think i learned a lot more by playing with physical synths and it was way more fun too. I kept them always on and whenever I had an itch to play I didn't have to open a project, click click, choose the instruments, sometimes being phased by so many options that the itch went away. Also sticking with a synth that didn't seem promising at first proved to be very rewarding after all, I'd discover interesting setups that I didn't think were possible. With VSTs I had dozens but can't say I felt like exploring in depth, I had no favorite VST, they all seemed to sound very similar. VSTS have advantages though. You come back to an old project and want to modify something and bam, everything is setup the way it was when recorded. You make a mistake and you easily go and edit out the mistake without re-recording. All in all I'd say to look at VSTs when you are more production inclined. If you just want to be creative and play and learn at the same time without so many stops to make choices, physical synths are a good investment. Physical synths and a physical mixer!
  - hrangozz 7y ago
    To be fair, Elektron boxes and Ableton w/ push 2 have a lot in common. The push provides a similar UI to the octatrack, but expanded and aligned with ableton. Instead of a single row step sequencer/keyboard the push has a grid. And the push has a bigger, but still menu driven screen.
    - brokenmachine 7y ago
      Do you have a Push? I do. I have no idea about an octatrack but I wouldn't agree that the Push is menu driven at all. There's a dedicated button for almost everything (except for browsing samples, which is something that it would be impossible to have dedicated buttons for). The great thing about Push is that you sort of make your own UI. If you put an instrument rack on a track then you assign your own macro knobs for whatever you want. It's only if you need to access the devices within that that you need to start navigating around using the (dedicated) buttons.
      - hrangozz 7y ago
        What I mean is if the buttons/knobs have no (or generic) labels, and the menu on the screen defines the function of a button/knob, it's menu driven. Without the on screen menu the function of the buttons/knobs across the top are not clear. As opposed to having one button/knob per function.
  - scarecrowbob 7y ago
    The thing that I like about hardware isn't the sound but the UI, like the parent post points out. The boxes you've sold off are good equipment, but they don't really have all the knobs that I'd want, even if they are powerful boxes.
  - brokenmachine 7y ago
    >using two ableton push 2 as midi controllers As I understand it, it is not possible to separate them, ie both will be showing the same track/device. Is it possible to have one in note mode while the other is in session mode? How do you use them together?
- detaro 7y ago
  I'd at least consider a cheap VA too. I personally would find starting with just a monosynth to limiting.
- reality_inspctr 7y ago
  Former board member of Bob Moog Foundation. Can confirm Bob himself obsessed with knobs for same reason.
- squeaky-clean 7y ago
  Agreed. For example I never really noticed how expressive the feedback is on a moog until getting one. Once you get the mixer into a sweet spot, the teeniest knob change makes a huge difference in tone. And so I tried the same thing with the "Monark" VST thinking "yeah analog still wins" and nope, Monark does the exact same thing. But I never discovered it until I actually had the knobs in front of me. I've since gotten a BCR-2000 and tried mapping all my soft synths but none of them map completely and it's just... not the same somehow. It is better though.
tnolet 7y ago
yes, a Minimoog or something similar in character just teaches you the most about signal path and modifiers like ADSR and LFO's.
louthy 7y ago
Or go modular. Just be prepared to remortgage your house a year later. Seriously addictive [1] https://imgur.com/a/chegsO5 https://imgur.com/a/chegsO5 (my setup)
- Aromasin 7y ago
  Or go a step further and build them yourself. You get to keep the house, but you won't be able to make much use of it because every available space is taken up with a random assortment of wires, op-amps, resistors and capacitors. DIY synth making will take up every bit of spare time you think you have left, and then some. Your hands will become a puzzle of soldering iron scars, and you'll slowly lose your hearing from accidental speaker pops. You have been warned.
  - louthy 7y ago
    > Or go a step further and build them yourself. Absolutely! There's a group on FB called 'Eurorack DIY' if anyone's interested in this. Thonk [1] is also the store for you. Lots of DIY kits (before you inevitably embark on the path of building your own modules from scratch!) [1] https://www.thonk.co.uk/ https://www.thonk.co.uk/
    - Aromasin 7y ago
      There's a guy on YouTube that got me into it which I highly recommend, called 'LOOK MUM NO COMPUTER'. He made a synth organ out of old Furbies toys. From that point I was sold. Also, as much as I love the Thonk products, don't get put off by the price tags of some of their kits if you're intimidated! Some of my favourite synths have been made from penny parts I got from Alibaba, that totalled about £15 to make. They have a habit of sometimes spontaneously exploding, but that's all part of the fun.
      - louthy 7y ago
        > They have a habit of sometimes spontaneously exploding, but that's all part of the fun. So you lose your house anyway ;)
fxj 7y ago
Caustic 3 has a great collection of all the basic synths: Modular, KS-synth, FM, Subtractive Sawtooth synth, Vocoder, Fourier, 8-bit, PCM. https://singlecellsoftware.com/caustic https://singlecellsoftware.com/caustic And it is free for iOS, Android, Windows, Linux/WINE
mikorym 7y ago
A while ago I recorded two songs (inter alia) that each used a Logic / Garageband synth. I can't perform these songs live without using my laptop. Currently my setup is with a Nord Piano 2 (which does not use Apple synthesisers and there does not appear to be a way to convert to Nord's file format). Is it possible to go from first principles, starting with a sound that I have in mind (an Apple Logic default synth) and build a similar sounding (digital) synthesiser in some (hopefully open) format that can cross convert?
- 33degrees 7y ago
  I'm not certain which synth you used, but you should definitely be able to get close with another synth
  - mikorym 7y ago
    The two synths were called "solo star" and "hovering machine". They come standard with the default installation.
- mft_ 7y ago
  AFAIK the Nord Piano (as opposed to the Nord Stage and others) doesn't have a full synth engine - but rather plays samples. You'd have to explore sampling the output of the Logic synth, and then converting and loading them into the sample engine on the Piano. https://www.nordkeyboards.com/software-tools/nord-sample-editor https://www.nordkeyboards.com/software-tools/nord-sample-edi...
  - mikorym 7y ago
    Cool, thanks. I've seen that sampler on my Nord installation disk but I assumed that there would be some level of loss of quality? Or can the output from the sample engine interpolate cleverly and recreate a faithful (or, at least, high quality) representation?
    - mft_ 7y ago
      Honestly, I've never tried it myself. But the default piano sounds you hear on the Nord Piano are essentially multiple high quality samples, so I'd think that as long as you can sample your original synth sounds in sufficiently high quality, they should sound pretty good.
luckydata 7y ago
Not necessarily unpopular but kind of a hassle. If you need to go through all that trouble just to learn something you might end up not being interested in seems a tad much. Software is definitely the way to go for the vast majority.

flycaliguy 7y ago

Absolutely. There is such a wide variety of cheap analog monosynths, it’s definitely the way to go. For me, the knobs are the most important part. It’s an expressive medium after all, you need to feel the movement.

bashwizard 7y ago
I don't know about that. I've sold off an Elektron Analog Four, Elektron Analog Rytm, Elektron Octatrack and an Access Virus Ti 2 less than a year ago and started working exclusivley in the box and using two ableton push 2 as midi controllers and I honestly do not miss my hardware at all. Sure I lose out on some of that analog warmth but I've come pretty close by emulating it with various VSTs.
- flycaliguy 7y ago
  I was speaking more to learning synths, learning how oscillators sound during detuning, feeling a filter sweep. Feeling out what each step of the subtractive process does with knobs, I would suggest, is a better way to learn. Those are some pricey synths you’ve rocked, not really a learner’s set-up, especially the Elektron sequencer. For me, the ms-20 and the feel of tweaking those knobs is what made the feel of really playing a synth come together. Jamming with a friend on drums. These days, yeah, I actually do most my noodling using the IOS Korg Gadget with my analog keys as a controller/filter bank.
- louthy 7y ago
  Elektron have possibly to worst user interfaces of any hardware synths or drum machines that I've used. So much menu diving. I ended up selling my Elektron stuff and will never buy from them again. Most other hardware is much more intuitive and interactive.
  - diydsp 7y ago
    I like my MachineDrum. Stuff only goes about 1 level deep. But this Analog Four mkII is driving me crazy because top level functions are not in the "right" places...
    - louthy 7y ago
      Machinedrum was one I sold :)
- joefourier 7y ago
  My personal experience is kind of inbetween. Analogue monosynths are great as a learning because you are stuck with what you have, and can't easily switch to another VST or scroll between endless presets. Their limitations force you to actually learn how to create sounds, and over time you get an intuitive sense of how to tweak each knob and slider just right in order to get the sound you want. However, VSTs are vastly more convenient and eliminate the annoyances of tuning, physically powering and plugging in a large amount of bulky machines, losing previous specific sounds, and they give you the ability to easily tweak and edit previous recordings. However, you lose the immediate sense of close control over each aspect of the sound. Ideally, what I would like is a physical MIDI controller with an exact map of my favorite analogue VSTs in terms of knobs and controls. My current keyboard does have a few a customization options, but it's rather awkward to map it to the VST each time, and it's not precisely 1:1 as there's not enough knobs, and they're not laid out or labeled in an intuitive manner.
  - onemoresoop 7y ago
    Also advantages of physical instruments are that you map a mental model to the instrument itself and IF the instrument is built properly and has a good workflow after a while you don't need to look at it, muscle memory translates intent to an action, becomes more intuitive and the flow is uninterrupted. The experience is immediate. On the other hand, physical synths take a lot of space, break down, are hard to setup if connected together, some require batteries to keep the settings and patches alive and the battery could sometimes be a pain to reach to and change. I had a Yamaha SY-77, which was amazing by the way, the battery failed and the screen was dim. I gave up attempting to replace it myself, it required taking apart most of the screws and the operation itself was a couple of hours. I started on VSTs but I think i learned a lot more by playing with physical synths and it was way more fun too. I kept them always on and whenever I had an itch to play I didn't have to open a project, click click, choose the instruments, sometimes being phased by so many options that the itch went away. Also sticking with a synth that didn't seem promising at first proved to be very rewarding after all, I'd discover interesting setups that I didn't think were possible. With VSTs I had dozens but can't say I felt like exploring in depth, I had no favorite VST, they all seemed to sound very similar. VSTS have advantages though. You come back to an old project and want to modify something and bam, everything is setup the way it was when recorded. You make a mistake and you easily go and edit out the mistake without re-recording. All in all I'd say to look at VSTs when you are more production inclined. If you just want to be creative and play and learn at the same time without so many stops to make choices, physical synths are a good investment. Physical synths and a physical mixer!
- hrangozz 7y ago
  To be fair, Elektron boxes and Ableton w/ push 2 have a lot in common. The push provides a similar UI to the octatrack, but expanded and aligned with ableton. Instead of a single row step sequencer/keyboard the push has a grid. And the push has a bigger, but still menu driven screen.
  - brokenmachine 7y ago
    Do you have a Push? I do. I have no idea about an octatrack but I wouldn't agree that the Push is menu driven at all. There's a dedicated button for almost everything (except for browsing samples, which is something that it would be impossible to have dedicated buttons for). The great thing about Push is that you sort of make your own UI. If you put an instrument rack on a track then you assign your own macro knobs for whatever you want. It's only if you need to access the devices within that that you need to start navigating around using the (dedicated) buttons.
    - hrangozz 7y ago
      What I mean is if the buttons/knobs have no (or generic) labels, and the menu on the screen defines the function of a button/knob, it's menu driven. Without the on screen menu the function of the buttons/knobs across the top are not clear. As opposed to having one button/knob per function.
- scarecrowbob 7y ago
  The thing that I like about hardware isn't the sound but the UI, like the parent post points out. The boxes you've sold off are good equipment, but they don't really have all the knobs that I'd want, even if they are powerful boxes.
- brokenmachine 7y ago
  >using two ableton push 2 as midi controllers As I understand it, it is not possible to separate them, ie both will be showing the same track/device. Is it possible to have one in note mode while the other is in session mode? How do you use them together?
detaro 7y ago
I'd at least consider a cheap VA too. I personally would find starting with just a monosynth to limiting.
reality_inspctr 7y ago
Former board member of Bob Moog Foundation. Can confirm Bob himself obsessed with knobs for same reason.
squeaky-clean 7y ago
Agreed. For example I never really noticed how expressive the feedback is on a moog until getting one. Once you get the mixer into a sweet spot, the teeniest knob change makes a huge difference in tone. And so I tried the same thing with the "Monark" VST thinking "yeah analog still wins" and nope, Monark does the exact same thing. But I never discovered it until I actually had the knobs in front of me. I've since gotten a BCR-2000 and tried mapping all my soft synths but none of them map completely and it's just... not the same somehow. It is better though.

tnolet 7y ago

yes, a Minimoog or something similar in character just teaches you the most about signal path and modifiers like ADSR and LFO's.

louthy 7y ago

Or go modular. Just be prepared to remortgage your house a year later. Seriously addictive [1] https://imgur.com/a/chegsO5 https://imgur.com/a/chegsO5 (my setup)

Aromasin 7y ago
Or go a step further and build them yourself. You get to keep the house, but you won't be able to make much use of it because every available space is taken up with a random assortment of wires, op-amps, resistors and capacitors. DIY synth making will take up every bit of spare time you think you have left, and then some. Your hands will become a puzzle of soldering iron scars, and you'll slowly lose your hearing from accidental speaker pops. You have been warned.
- louthy 7y ago
  > Or go a step further and build them yourself. Absolutely! There's a group on FB called 'Eurorack DIY' if anyone's interested in this. Thonk [1] is also the store for you. Lots of DIY kits (before you inevitably embark on the path of building your own modules from scratch!) [1] https://www.thonk.co.uk/ https://www.thonk.co.uk/
  - Aromasin 7y ago
    There's a guy on YouTube that got me into it which I highly recommend, called 'LOOK MUM NO COMPUTER'. He made a synth organ out of old Furbies toys. From that point I was sold. Also, as much as I love the Thonk products, don't get put off by the price tags of some of their kits if you're intimidated! Some of my favourite synths have been made from penny parts I got from Alibaba, that totalled about £15 to make. They have a habit of sometimes spontaneously exploding, but that's all part of the fun.
    - louthy 7y ago
      > They have a habit of sometimes spontaneously exploding, but that's all part of the fun. So you lose your house anyway ;)

fxj 7y ago

Caustic 3 has a great collection of all the basic synths: Modular, KS-synth, FM, Subtractive Sawtooth synth, Vocoder, Fourier, 8-bit, PCM. https://singlecellsoftware.com/caustic https://singlecellsoftware.com/caustic And it is free for iOS, Android, Windows, Linux/WINE

mikorym 7y ago

A while ago I recorded two songs (inter alia) that each used a Logic / Garageband synth. I can't perform these songs live without using my laptop. Currently my setup is with a Nord Piano 2 (which does not use Apple synthesisers and there does not appear to be a way to convert to Nord's file format). Is it possible to go from first principles, starting with a sound that I have in mind (an Apple Logic default synth) and build a similar sounding (digital) synthesiser in some (hopefully open) format that can cross convert?

33degrees 7y ago
I'm not certain which synth you used, but you should definitely be able to get close with another synth
- mikorym 7y ago
  The two synths were called "solo star" and "hovering machine". They come standard with the default installation.
mft_ 7y ago
AFAIK the Nord Piano (as opposed to the Nord Stage and others) doesn't have a full synth engine - but rather plays samples. You'd have to explore sampling the output of the Logic synth, and then converting and loading them into the sample engine on the Piano. https://www.nordkeyboards.com/software-tools/nord-sample-editor https://www.nordkeyboards.com/software-tools/nord-sample-edi...
- mikorym 7y ago
  Cool, thanks. I've seen that sampler on my Nord installation disk but I assumed that there would be some level of loss of quality? Or can the output from the sample engine interpolate cleverly and recreate a faithful (or, at least, high quality) representation?
  - mft_ 7y ago
    Honestly, I've never tried it myself. But the default piano sounds you hear on the Nord Piano are essentially multiple high quality samples, so I'd think that as long as you can sample your original synth sounds in sufficiently high quality, they should sound pretty good.

luckydata 7y ago

Not necessarily unpopular but kind of a hassle. If you need to go through all that trouble just to learn something you might end up not being interested in seems a tad much. Software is definitely the way to go for the vast majority.