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>rightfully and loudly blamed There is an enormous difference between assigning fault in a good faith attempt to find a root cause/solution, and casting unnece

>rightfully and loudly blamed There is an enormous difference between assigning fault in a good faith attempt to find a root cause/solution, and casting unnecessary, unprofessional insults such as "Verizon's team should be ashamed of themselves". One is productive, and the other is just being a dick. >The way you lead people isn't the same as the way you lead companies. Yes, it certainly is. A company is an organization of people, after all. You don't get to eschew professionalism and start throwing around insults just because a group of people has decided to attach an additional label over their heads. And just to put an even finer point on it, Matthew Prince's tweets about the issue were not targeted at Verizon "the company". He specifically attacked Verizon's NOC and its team members. Despite everything, this isn't a faceless, soulless corporation that's having insults hurled at them. He specifically went after a specific group of people and publicly shamed them. And then he has the gall to shame them even more for not immediately chomping at the bit to help someone who just aggressively insulted them. Ask yourself: if Matthew Prince had sent a tweet berating team members from his own company, telling them they should be ashamed of themselves, and spent the rest of the day commenting on the internet insulting their competence, would you still be saying he is a good leader? Or even a good CEO? Of course not. It's Leadership 101 that insulting your team members isn't a good leadership style. And that doesn't change just because Prince isn't the one signing the Verizon team's paychecks. > This is not a problem that requires active cooperation. This is clearly not the opinion of those at Cloudflare that are loudly kicking their feet and whining that Verizon didn't devote enough resources to actively cooperate with Cloudflare's troubleshooting today.

Dylan16807 7y ago
> A company is an organization of people Blaming a specific team can get too personal. Blaming an entire company is more about the decision-making structure, and is close to as impersonal as you can get. It's really not the same as blaming a person. > This is clearly not the opinion of those at Cloudflare that are loudly kicking their feet and whining that Verizon didn't devote enough resources to actively cooperate with Cloudflare's troubleshooting today. They didn't notice, acknowledge, or fix the problem. That's different from a lack of resources devoted to active cooperation. Heck, two messages of "on it" and "it's fixed" would be a pleasant level of "active cooperation", and that takes only a minute or two.
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  > Blaming a specific team can get too personal. And yet blaming a specific team is exactly what they did. >They didn't notice, acknowledge, or fix the problem. That's different from a lack of resources devoted to active cooperation. Heck, two messages of "on it" and "it's fixed" would be a pleasant level of "active cooperation", and that takes only a minute or two. Sure, I'm not defending Verizon's inaction. My point is that regardless of the level of the cooperation, some cooperation is clearly still required. And now because of Cloudflare's hostility towards Verizon after this incident, I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon is much less inclined to participate in any cooperation. That not only seems counterproductive to Cloudflare's goal, it's also bad for all of us that use the internet.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    > And yet blaming a specific team is exactly what they did. In this specific case, just blaming "Verizon", it was not personal. (There are a variety of things that can be classified under "blaming a team" so I can't give it a blanket okay/not okay.) Knowing it's the NOC team, as an amorphous blob of nameless people, is not getting too personal. Just because something can be traced to a team doesn't mean that shaming the company is the same as shaming specific people from that team. Going down that road would declare everything as personal, and that's really not how things work. > I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon is much less inclined to participate in any cooperation. The public pressure should be stronger than any pettiness, and if it's not then the solution is to let even more people know it was Verizon's fault.
    - txcwpalpha 7y ago
      >In this specific case, just blaming "Verizon", it was not personal. That isn't what they did. They specifically called out teams, which according to what you just said, is too personal. https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1143182575680143361 https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1143182575680143361 > The teams at @verizon and @noction should be incredibly embarrassed at their failings this morning ... It’s networking malpractice that the NOC at @verizon has still not replied to messages Not only does he specifically call out the NOC, he also calls out teams. It is very obvious which "the teams" he is referring to, and "the NOC" is indeed a specific team. In other comments he also calls out Verizon's support team. This wasn't the case of "tracing it back to a team". CF's CEO specifically addressed them and told them to be ashamed of themselves. That's personal, and it's also being a dick to boot. Was there anything in this situation that was gained by Prince calling these people out in these tweets? Would it not have been just as effective at calling out Verizon (while being less unprofessional and less personally malicious) if those tweets had been less vitriolic? > The public pressure should be stronger than any pettiness, and if it's not then the solution is to let even more people know it was Verizon's fault. So the solution to pettiness is more pettiness? Why does CF have a license to be petty but VZ apparently does not?

Dylan16807 7y ago

> A company is an organization of people Blaming a specific team can get too personal. Blaming an entire company is more about the decision-making structure, and is close to as impersonal as you can get. It's really not the same as blaming a person. > This is clearly not the opinion of those at Cloudflare that are loudly kicking their feet and whining that Verizon didn't devote enough resources to actively cooperate with Cloudflare's troubleshooting today. They didn't notice, acknowledge, or fix the problem. That's different from a lack of resources devoted to active cooperation. Heck, two messages of "on it" and "it's fixed" would be a pleasant level of "active cooperation", and that takes only a minute or two.

txcwpalpha 7y ago
> Blaming a specific team can get too personal. And yet blaming a specific team is exactly what they did. >They didn't notice, acknowledge, or fix the problem. That's different from a lack of resources devoted to active cooperation. Heck, two messages of "on it" and "it's fixed" would be a pleasant level of "active cooperation", and that takes only a minute or two. Sure, I'm not defending Verizon's inaction. My point is that regardless of the level of the cooperation, some cooperation is clearly still required. And now because of Cloudflare's hostility towards Verizon after this incident, I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon is much less inclined to participate in any cooperation. That not only seems counterproductive to Cloudflare's goal, it's also bad for all of us that use the internet.
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  > And yet blaming a specific team is exactly what they did. In this specific case, just blaming "Verizon", it was not personal. (There are a variety of things that can be classified under "blaming a team" so I can't give it a blanket okay/not okay.) Knowing it's the NOC team, as an amorphous blob of nameless people, is not getting too personal. Just because something can be traced to a team doesn't mean that shaming the company is the same as shaming specific people from that team. Going down that road would declare everything as personal, and that's really not how things work. > I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon is much less inclined to participate in any cooperation. The public pressure should be stronger than any pettiness, and if it's not then the solution is to let even more people know it was Verizon's fault.
  - txcwpalpha 7y ago
    >In this specific case, just blaming "Verizon", it was not personal. That isn't what they did. They specifically called out teams, which according to what you just said, is too personal. https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1143182575680143361 https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1143182575680143361 > The teams at @verizon and @noction should be incredibly embarrassed at their failings this morning ... It’s networking malpractice that the NOC at @verizon has still not replied to messages Not only does he specifically call out the NOC, he also calls out teams. It is very obvious which "the teams" he is referring to, and "the NOC" is indeed a specific team. In other comments he also calls out Verizon's support team. This wasn't the case of "tracing it back to a team". CF's CEO specifically addressed them and told them to be ashamed of themselves. That's personal, and it's also being a dick to boot. Was there anything in this situation that was gained by Prince calling these people out in these tweets? Would it not have been just as effective at calling out Verizon (while being less unprofessional and less personally malicious) if those tweets had been less vitriolic? > The public pressure should be stronger than any pettiness, and if it's not then the solution is to let even more people know it was Verizon's fault. So the solution to pettiness is more pettiness? Why does CF have a license to be petty but VZ apparently does not?