7 ms·

Or more accurately reworded (but less exciting) loud music is bad for your hearing. Many people choose earbuds that are not isolating intentionally because they

Or more accurately reworded (but less exciting) loud music is bad for your hearing. Many people choose earbuds that are not isolating intentionally because they want to be aware of their surroundings and thus don't increase the volume to compensate.

girvo 7y ago
> Many people... Sure, but the study that's discussed showed that most people don't do that. They do indeed turn the volume up to dangerous levels, mediated by the type of earphones they're using. You and I are not the norm, and so it's something that's worth looking into, no?
Anechoic 7y ago
Many people choose earbuds that are not isolating intentionally because they want to be aware of their surroundings and thus don't increase the volume to compensate. That might be true, but I'd bet good money most people chose non-isolating earbuds because they don't know any better (or know of the existence of isolating earbuds).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sushisource 7y ago
  Additionally, I think the marketing around active noise cancelling has been so good that most people have no clue a good pair of in-ear earbuds can do just as well (without causing the weird artifacting that active cancelling can) passively.
  - sundvor 7y ago
    For the open office, my Sony XM3s are extremely easy to take on and off in an instant - and offer extremely good cancellation, and OK sound quality for programming. My Audio Technica ATH-IM02 earbuds in comparison require very careful positioning, even though it offers far superior quality in a quiet environment.
    - llampx 7y ago
      I use the "palm on the side" feature a lot. It reduces the music volume and turns up the ambient noise. If I'm not mistaken, it also increases the volume of voices so you can hear conversations well.
      - sundvor 7y ago
        Yep, the ambient function is great; Sony has really nailed it for use in the office. I'm seeing lots of coworkers picking this up.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    Properly fitted in-ear monitors do better, because they can block unpredictable sound sources. Active noise cancellation does a very good job of reducing the constant hum of aircraft engines, but very little to block the sound of a crying baby.
  - opencl 7y ago
    What kind of earbuds do you mean? Those incredibly expensive custom molded ones? I have some foam tipped earbuds (Tinaudio T2) and the isolation seems pretty good compared to other earbuds I have previously owned but nowhere near the 1000XM3 active noise canceling.
    - plorkyeran 7y ago
      Silicone tips work much better than foam tips for me. I currently use Shure SE215s and the passive noise blocking when using silicone tips seems similar to (but not better than) the old quietcomforts I've used.
    - kderbe 7y ago
      Before using custom molded IEMs I used Etymotics with foam tips, which had much thicker foam than what I see on the Tinaudio product page. The isolation with foam is just as good, if properly inserted (same technique as with foam earplugs: roll to compress, insert deeply, and hold in place until fully expanded). But after only a few insertions the foam starts to lose its resiliency and sound-blocking effectiveness. Custom IEMs can isolate noise almost as well as fully inserted foam earplugs, and they take only a second to insert or remove. The convenience and sound-blocking consistency are why I prefer them to "universal" tipped IEMs.
    - omnimus 7y ago
      Tinaudio ? I would never think there would be chi-fi users on hnews.
    - lm28469 7y ago
      > Those incredibly expensive custom molded ones? Cheapo shure se215 with triple flange or foam tips and you're golden. I have them on all day and I even manage to sleep with them (when I accidentally fall asleep while listening to a podcast)
- tiglionabbit 7y ago
  What’s better than AirPods? And don’t suggest those rubber things that make weird sounds when I move. Apple earbuds are the only ones I know of that I can tolerate.
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    Custom-fit ear molds - where an audiologist pours goo into your ears, lets it harden, and then sends those molds off to be made into headphone attachments - are the only way to use earbuds in a safe way. Every other route will either suffer “weird sounds when I move”, ear pain, or hearing damage due to instinctively using volume to make up for a lack of sound isolation under most normal circumstances. You can set an iOS volume limit of no more than 50% on your phone to get a head start at protecting your hearing, but most people will find this unacceptable in the short-term due to perceived “quietness”. Active noise canceling is a valid option, but only for either headphones over the ears or earbuds that are molded to fit your ear canal, at which point you likely won’t need ANC assuming that it stills works at all after the molds are attached!
    - koolba 7y ago
      > Custom-fit ear molds - where an audiologist pours goo into your ears, lets it harden, and then sends those molds off to be made into headphone attachments - are the only way to use earbuds in a safe way. Where does one get those and how much does it cost?
      - opencl 7y ago
        There are a few companies that sell them, the cheapest ones I have seen are $500 and many are in the multiple thousands. And that's before paying the audiologist, though Ultimate Ears claims you can do the molding yourself at home and I have no idea if this is significantly worse or not. Examples: https://custom.ultimateears.com/products/earphones https://custom.ultimateears.com/products/earphones https://nobleaudio.com/en/shop/custom/ https://nobleaudio.com/en/shop/custom/ https://www.64audio.com/store/audiophile#universal https://www.64audio.com/store/audiophile#universal
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  I personally feel comfortable wearing EarPods biking, but not proper noise canceling headphones. I'm confident there's a healthy set of users who understand this as well.
  - llampx 7y ago
    There's so much noise on the street that I feel more comfortable with IEMs than open earphones. I don't need to be deafened by a horn blast or a bus releasing its air brakes next to me.
- chongli 7y ago
  I choose non-isolating because I can't stand the sound of my own heartbeat and my breath resonating through my sinuses. The isolation also just tends to make me feel paranoid about my surroundings. It's just completely unnatural to feel isolated that way.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    It's probably in part a consequence of not growing up using headphones/earphones when walking or doing other things outside. But I just can't get used to being cut off from what's going on around me even absent isolating earphones. I don't really feel comfortable walking in the woods. I basically can't imagine walking in a city with earphones in.
    - dkersten 7y ago
      I feel like the generation of people not fully aware of their surroundings is a mugger/pickpockets dream come true.
  - realshowbiz 7y ago
    Thats why you turn on music once you put the earbuds in...
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  I really don't care much for IEMs. Cord noise, uncomfortable after an hour or so (even with quality memory foam tips), and actually a little too isolating IMO.
  - varren 7y ago
    Comfort comes not only from tips, but also from cable position. Sometimes over the ear cable can make a bigger difference then tips.
- flukus 7y ago
  A choose not to because the lifetime of expensive "high quality" earbuds is about the same as a $2 pair from the supermarket, if I'm going to pay for high end ones I want something that will last more than a few months and I've been burned a couple of times. The midrange ($30-$40) sony ones are the only brand I've had that can last a year.
  - varren 7y ago
    hm, most "high quality" earbuds nowadays come with detachable cables and i have 3 200$+ earbuds with mmcx. 2 chi-fi and 1 sony, all of them work for 3-5 years of active use. Yes mmcx chords could break from time to time, but top notch chords cost like 5-10$ on aliexpress nowadays. anyway i'm probably a little bit biased here, because after you get several dissent pairs you start to think what kind of music you what to play today and what kind of headphones signature you should use for this music, because to be honest there is a huge difference. And yeah i was exactly like you, buying the cheapest possible earbuds 5 years ago and i had like 10+ of thous cheap sony/philips/sennheisers. They all break in a couple of mounts-year. Usually it is a chord or just some driver problems.
    - omnimus 7y ago
      Which chi-fi earbuds fromi aliexpress you recomend?
      - jsmith99 7y ago
        The Timaudio T2 is well regarded and has a neutral response. There are loads of reviews online.
      - punchclockhero 7y ago
        I'm a KZ fan. Most models have detachable cables with several replacement options, including Bluetooth. My current main is ZS6, very neutral, but the angular metal body can be quite uncomfortable. Before that I had ZST which was way more comfortable and had more bass, although the instrument separation wasn't as good. Still the best $20 I've ever spent on music.
- r00fus 7y ago
  If you’re talking about ear/airpods then it’s possible some are purely “default option”. However I do believe that Apple did a lot of research to find a good basic shape, and I and quite a few other dolls I know prefer them for their breathability (your ear isn’t designed to be sealed up) and sound awareness.
- em-bee 7y ago
  i'd suppose i fall into the category of not knowing any better. i use earbuds when on public transport, and i am exactly suffering from that problem that the trains are to loud and i need to raise the volume to compensate. (i listen to audio books and audio drama where every word counts. if i were to listen to music it would matter less if i miss a beat here or there) i chose those earbuds for 3 reasons: i can't stand having something stuck in my ears (makes me gag) huge headphones that cover the ears look out of place, and i'd have to take them off if i actually do want to talk to someone. they also signal very much a "do not bother me" and "i don't care about my surroundings" message that i fear can come off as rude. my kids play with the rubbers and pull them off because it's interesting. (they are explorers, that's their job) at least this article makes me reconsider alternative options.
_coveredInBees 7y ago
That's not really more accurate as it misses the entire point of the article. Everyone knows that prolonged exposure to loud music/noise is bad for your hearing. What most people are not good at judging, is whether they are inherently listening to music at damaging volume levels or not when using earbud style headphones, especially when ambient noise levels are high. And that is what is causing trouble for people. These aren't renegade, death metal adoring teens blasting music at high volumes just to be cool...
dkersten 7y ago
I remember reading that any volume head/earphone listening is bad for your ears if listening for a prolonged period of time, which is one of the primary reasons why I refuse to spend all day listening on headphones in open offices and instead just take a productivity hit (and work from home most of the time instead). > don’t increase the volume to compensate Anecdotally, the number of people whose music I can hear from meters away suggests that many people do increase the volume to compensate.
- leokennis 7y ago
  I use noise canceling headphones. My iPhone is on 10-15% volume, I hear my music and I don’t hear all the chatter. No way this hurts my hearing.
  - dkersten 7y ago
    I believe the theory was that because the headphones/earbuds send energy directly into your ear canal (while external sounds bounce off more stuff and travel further), that it is more harmful (over prolonged periods of time). I don’t know how volume correlates with sound pressure, intensity and power, so I can’t comment on whether or not that’s true. Note that this was for prolonged (many hours) of listening, even at low volume. With that said, I googled and came up blank looking for these studies, so you could be right. Without the studies to back it up, what I wrote is kinda meaningless.
grimskin 7y ago
I'd say it's just another iteration of "headphones will kill your ears". The same stuff was around when walkmans became a thing.

girvo 7y ago

> Many people... Sure, but the study that's discussed showed that most people don't do that. They do indeed turn the volume up to dangerous levels, mediated by the type of earphones they're using. You and I are not the norm, and so it's something that's worth looking into, no?

Anechoic 7y ago

Many people choose earbuds that are not isolating intentionally because they want to be aware of their surroundings and thus don't increase the volume to compensate. That might be true, but I'd bet good money most people chose non-isolating earbuds because they don't know any better (or know of the existence of isolating earbuds).

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
sushisource 7y ago
Additionally, I think the marketing around active noise cancelling has been so good that most people have no clue a good pair of in-ear earbuds can do just as well (without causing the weird artifacting that active cancelling can) passively.
- sundvor 7y ago
  For the open office, my Sony XM3s are extremely easy to take on and off in an instant - and offer extremely good cancellation, and OK sound quality for programming. My Audio Technica ATH-IM02 earbuds in comparison require very careful positioning, even though it offers far superior quality in a quiet environment.
  - llampx 7y ago
    I use the "palm on the side" feature a lot. It reduces the music volume and turns up the ambient noise. If I'm not mistaken, it also increases the volume of voices so you can hear conversations well.
    - sundvor 7y ago
      Yep, the ambient function is great; Sony has really nailed it for use in the office. I'm seeing lots of coworkers picking this up.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  Properly fitted in-ear monitors do better, because they can block unpredictable sound sources. Active noise cancellation does a very good job of reducing the constant hum of aircraft engines, but very little to block the sound of a crying baby.
- opencl 7y ago
  What kind of earbuds do you mean? Those incredibly expensive custom molded ones? I have some foam tipped earbuds (Tinaudio T2) and the isolation seems pretty good compared to other earbuds I have previously owned but nowhere near the 1000XM3 active noise canceling.
  - plorkyeran 7y ago
    Silicone tips work much better than foam tips for me. I currently use Shure SE215s and the passive noise blocking when using silicone tips seems similar to (but not better than) the old quietcomforts I've used.
  - kderbe 7y ago
    Before using custom molded IEMs I used Etymotics with foam tips, which had much thicker foam than what I see on the Tinaudio product page. The isolation with foam is just as good, if properly inserted (same technique as with foam earplugs: roll to compress, insert deeply, and hold in place until fully expanded). But after only a few insertions the foam starts to lose its resiliency and sound-blocking effectiveness. Custom IEMs can isolate noise almost as well as fully inserted foam earplugs, and they take only a second to insert or remove. The convenience and sound-blocking consistency are why I prefer them to "universal" tipped IEMs.
  - omnimus 7y ago
    Tinaudio ? I would never think there would be chi-fi users on hnews.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > Those incredibly expensive custom molded ones? Cheapo shure se215 with triple flange or foam tips and you're golden. I have them on all day and I even manage to sleep with them (when I accidentally fall asleep while listening to a podcast)
tiglionabbit 7y ago
What’s better than AirPods? And don’t suggest those rubber things that make weird sounds when I move. Apple earbuds are the only ones I know of that I can tolerate.
- floatingatoll 7y ago
  Custom-fit ear molds - where an audiologist pours goo into your ears, lets it harden, and then sends those molds off to be made into headphone attachments - are the only way to use earbuds in a safe way. Every other route will either suffer “weird sounds when I move”, ear pain, or hearing damage due to instinctively using volume to make up for a lack of sound isolation under most normal circumstances. You can set an iOS volume limit of no more than 50% on your phone to get a head start at protecting your hearing, but most people will find this unacceptable in the short-term due to perceived “quietness”. Active noise canceling is a valid option, but only for either headphones over the ears or earbuds that are molded to fit your ear canal, at which point you likely won’t need ANC assuming that it stills works at all after the molds are attached!
  - koolba 7y ago
    > Custom-fit ear molds - where an audiologist pours goo into your ears, lets it harden, and then sends those molds off to be made into headphone attachments - are the only way to use earbuds in a safe way. Where does one get those and how much does it cost?
    - opencl 7y ago
      There are a few companies that sell them, the cheapest ones I have seen are $500 and many are in the multiple thousands. And that's before paying the audiologist, though Ultimate Ears claims you can do the molding yourself at home and I have no idea if this is significantly worse or not. Examples: https://custom.ultimateears.com/products/earphones https://custom.ultimateears.com/products/earphones https://nobleaudio.com/en/shop/custom/ https://nobleaudio.com/en/shop/custom/ https://www.64audio.com/store/audiophile#universal https://www.64audio.com/store/audiophile#universal
nixpulvis 7y ago
I personally feel comfortable wearing EarPods biking, but not proper noise canceling headphones. I'm confident there's a healthy set of users who understand this as well.
- llampx 7y ago
  There's so much noise on the street that I feel more comfortable with IEMs than open earphones. I don't need to be deafened by a horn blast or a bus releasing its air brakes next to me.
chongli 7y ago
I choose non-isolating because I can't stand the sound of my own heartbeat and my breath resonating through my sinuses. The isolation also just tends to make me feel paranoid about my surroundings. It's just completely unnatural to feel isolated that way.
- ghaff 7y ago
  It's probably in part a consequence of not growing up using headphones/earphones when walking or doing other things outside. But I just can't get used to being cut off from what's going on around me even absent isolating earphones. I don't really feel comfortable walking in the woods. I basically can't imagine walking in a city with earphones in.
  - dkersten 7y ago
    I feel like the generation of people not fully aware of their surroundings is a mugger/pickpockets dream come true.
- realshowbiz 7y ago
  Thats why you turn on music once you put the earbuds in...
rootusrootus 7y ago
I really don't care much for IEMs. Cord noise, uncomfortable after an hour or so (even with quality memory foam tips), and actually a little too isolating IMO.
- varren 7y ago
  Comfort comes not only from tips, but also from cable position. Sometimes over the ear cable can make a bigger difference then tips.
flukus 7y ago
A choose not to because the lifetime of expensive "high quality" earbuds is about the same as a $2 pair from the supermarket, if I'm going to pay for high end ones I want something that will last more than a few months and I've been burned a couple of times. The midrange ($30-$40) sony ones are the only brand I've had that can last a year.
- varren 7y ago
  hm, most "high quality" earbuds nowadays come with detachable cables and i have 3 200$+ earbuds with mmcx. 2 chi-fi and 1 sony, all of them work for 3-5 years of active use. Yes mmcx chords could break from time to time, but top notch chords cost like 5-10$ on aliexpress nowadays. anyway i'm probably a little bit biased here, because after you get several dissent pairs you start to think what kind of music you what to play today and what kind of headphones signature you should use for this music, because to be honest there is a huge difference. And yeah i was exactly like you, buying the cheapest possible earbuds 5 years ago and i had like 10+ of thous cheap sony/philips/sennheisers. They all break in a couple of mounts-year. Usually it is a chord or just some driver problems.
  - omnimus 7y ago
    Which chi-fi earbuds fromi aliexpress you recomend?
    - jsmith99 7y ago
      The Timaudio T2 is well regarded and has a neutral response. There are loads of reviews online.
    - punchclockhero 7y ago
      I'm a KZ fan. Most models have detachable cables with several replacement options, including Bluetooth. My current main is ZS6, very neutral, but the angular metal body can be quite uncomfortable. Before that I had ZST which was way more comfortable and had more bass, although the instrument separation wasn't as good. Still the best $20 I've ever spent on music.
r00fus 7y ago
If you’re talking about ear/airpods then it’s possible some are purely “default option”. However I do believe that Apple did a lot of research to find a good basic shape, and I and quite a few other dolls I know prefer them for their breathability (your ear isn’t designed to be sealed up) and sound awareness.
em-bee 7y ago
i'd suppose i fall into the category of not knowing any better. i use earbuds when on public transport, and i am exactly suffering from that problem that the trains are to loud and i need to raise the volume to compensate. (i listen to audio books and audio drama where every word counts. if i were to listen to music it would matter less if i miss a beat here or there) i chose those earbuds for 3 reasons: i can't stand having something stuck in my ears (makes me gag) huge headphones that cover the ears look out of place, and i'd have to take them off if i actually do want to talk to someone. they also signal very much a "do not bother me" and "i don't care about my surroundings" message that i fear can come off as rude. my kids play with the rubbers and pull them off because it's interesting. (they are explorers, that's their job) at least this article makes me reconsider alternative options.

_coveredInBees 7y ago

That's not really more accurate as it misses the entire point of the article. Everyone knows that prolonged exposure to loud music/noise is bad for your hearing. What most people are not good at judging, is whether they are inherently listening to music at damaging volume levels or not when using earbud style headphones, especially when ambient noise levels are high. And that is what is causing trouble for people. These aren't renegade, death metal adoring teens blasting music at high volumes just to be cool...

dkersten 7y ago

I remember reading that any volume head/earphone listening is bad for your ears if listening for a prolonged period of time, which is one of the primary reasons why I refuse to spend all day listening on headphones in open offices and instead just take a productivity hit (and work from home most of the time instead). > don’t increase the volume to compensate Anecdotally, the number of people whose music I can hear from meters away suggests that many people do increase the volume to compensate.

leokennis 7y ago
I use noise canceling headphones. My iPhone is on 10-15% volume, I hear my music and I don’t hear all the chatter. No way this hurts my hearing.
- dkersten 7y ago
  I believe the theory was that because the headphones/earbuds send energy directly into your ear canal (while external sounds bounce off more stuff and travel further), that it is more harmful (over prolonged periods of time). I don’t know how volume correlates with sound pressure, intensity and power, so I can’t comment on whether or not that’s true. Note that this was for prolonged (many hours) of listening, even at low volume. With that said, I googled and came up blank looking for these studies, so you could be right. Without the studies to back it up, what I wrote is kinda meaningless.

grimskin 7y ago

I'd say it's just another iteration of "headphones will kill your ears". The same stuff was around when walkmans became a thing.