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>Are you still using VideoCore? >Yes. VideoCore 3D is the only publicly documented 3D graphics core for ARM‑based SoCs, and we want to make Raspberry Pi more o

>Are you still using VideoCore? >Yes. VideoCore 3D is the only publicly documented 3D graphics core for ARM‑based SoCs, and we want to make Raspberry Pi more open over time, not less. This stated intention and rpi.org's actions are simply not isomorphic. If they want to make Raspberry Pi more open, firstly, why do they publish only abridged (read: fake) schematics? [1] Secondly, why was rpi.org caught adding DRM chips to their optional camera addon board? [2] [1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/schematics/rpi_SCH_4b_4p0_reduced.pdf https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberry... Note the nonsensical, incomplete nature of these schematics, and the complete absence of details such as the USB3 ports, and most of the SoC's connections. [2] https://hackaday.io/project/19480-raspberry-pi-camera-v21-reversed/log/53217-pi-camera-driver-makes-deal-with-the-devil https://hackaday.io/project/19480-raspberry-pi-camera-v21-re...

ben_w 7y ago
As a previous line manager one said to me “yes, and I want a pony”. That they want to be more open does not mean they are currently fully open – in fact, it requires them to not yet to be fully open. Their primary goal (last I checked) is to be cheap, being fully open is at the very best their secondary goal.
- hlandau 7y ago
  That doesn't follow. Firstly, I don't think I've seen any other SBC vendor fail to publish full schematics. This is a peculiarity of rpi's offering. Secondly, nobody is forcing them to add DRM chips to anything. That's not something that can be written off on "a contractual obligation made me do it." They did it of their own will.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    Counter hypothesis because I can’t be bothered to research it fully: Pi: “Hello we wish to buy a $thing” Vendor: “Certainly. We sell $thing for ten dollars per unit if it doesn’t have DRM, or five dollars per unit if it does.”
    - hlandau 7y ago
      The camera PCB was made by rpi for specific use with the rpi. The DRM chip is not part of the camera vendor's assembly. It is a separate chip placed on the PCB, therefore placed there by the PCB designer, i.e., by rpi.
      - kingosticks 7y ago
        Ben Upton said: > You can plug any CSI camera into the Raspberry Pi. There's even a kernel driver for the CSI receiver, which we paid for ((link: https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9951525/ https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9951525/) patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9951525/). What you can't do is clone the official v2 camera module and use the default ISP tuning, which we also paid for. https://mobile.twitter.com/EbenUpton/status/1088440503622909952 https://mobile.twitter.com/EbenUpton/status/1088440503622909... Personally I have no problem at all with protecting the investments around add-ons like this module, if it means they continue to persue them.
        Qworg 7y ago
        I'd prefer if they gave us the full functionality of the device though - the imager is capable of global shutter but it is locked out.
        kingosticks 7y ago
        That's a fair point. Perhaps when camera v3 is released they'll have the option of updating start.elf and removing the restrictions on using this hardware.
      - amelius 7y ago
        Isn't the use of the chip by the user entirely optional?
        makomk 7y ago
        Well, it's optional in the sense that if you can find a way to use the camera with some board other than a Raspberry Pi then you don't have to use it. If you're doing the intended thing of connecting it to a Raspberry Pi, though? Not optional.
  - mtgx 7y ago
    If they wanted to be open they'd probably transition to RISC_V.
Jonnax 7y ago
1) They make a low cost computer where they've put significant work into making it more open software wise. Their revenue stream is through the sale of their hardware, why do they need to allow people to make clones? 2) Maybe it's to do with the terms in which they get the camera module? I don't know but I don't see them selling the camera as interoperable. Your comment just seems to exemplify the phrase: "No good deed goes unpunished" They do something good but freeloaders just turn up and demand more.
- hlandau 7y ago
  Other SBC makers don't have an issue offering full schematics, yet, due to their smaller size, have relatively more to lose from being cloned. Moreover, I hope nobody believes that a lack of full schematics is going to stop people from making clones. Schematics can be reversed with not too much effort. Due to their large audience and brand recognition, rpi actually has less to fear from clones than smaller SBC vendors. If anything, it seems like they've judged that their large size and brand recognition is something that they can coast on to avoid having to offer what other SBC vendors do. I'm not complaining about rpi existing, I'm pointing out that what they offer is in certain aspects inferior to the offerings of smaller SBC vendors, which is actually surprising, given that their large size should make them much better resourced to match or exceed the offerings of those vendors. This causes me to question whether these values are actually a priority at all, even if they claim so.
  - phosphophyllite 7y ago
    Maybe RPi developers deal with with some investors that way? (in order to attract more money)
    - hlandau 7y ago
      The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a nonprofit.
      - morphle 7y ago
mojuba 7y ago
> This stated intention and rpi.org's actions Please, never shorten or distort domain names... I went to rpi.org which turned out to be a spam trap.
- avip 7y ago
  It's just a standard squatted domain, I don't see any spam trap.
  - mojuba 7y ago
    I didn't mean email spam. Yes, domain thing, whatever it's called.
stefan_ 7y ago
Citing the part with the VideoCore is just fully nonsensical. The Raspberry Pi is the only SBC out there with a fully open-source, production-level graphics driver.
pedroaraujo 7y ago
> This stated intention and rpi.org's actions are simply not isomorphic. If they want to make Raspberry Pi more open, firstly, why do they publish only abridged (read: fake) schematics? Why do people tend to dismiss the openness of the RasperryPi with completely unrelated things? This is the classic case of Whataboutism[0]. Just because you can't replicate the entire product in your garage, it doesn't mean that it isn't quite open already. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- benj111 7y ago
  I don't agree with the parent but it isn't an example of whataboutism. He's taking issue with the stated aim of openess, with examples he feels aren't open.
KaiserPro 7y ago
> Secondly, why was rpi.org caught adding DRM chips to their optional camera addon board? to stop counterfeit boards. There are many _other_ cameras that you can use for the rpi, so its not like they are trying to block out competition. its to stop people making illegal clones and ripping people off. (cough I'm looking at you amazon) see semi official explanation here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=149426 https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=149426 The people that make the raspberry pi are a not for profit, they use the money made to sponsor children learning to code. Its not like they hide their aims: https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/about/RaspberryPiFoundationStrategy2018%E2%80%932020.pdf https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/about/RaspberryPiFounda... tl;dr: its to stop people making knockoffs, taking money from a foundation who are trying to educate an entire generation.
- hlandau 7y ago
  Thanks to you and @kingosticks above for digging up these official accounts. Cursory examination of rpi firmware suggests that this DRM logic is implemented in start.elf, one of the proprietary blobs required to boot an rpi. This is, in itself, significant, since opening this blob would obviously make this restriction easy to circumvent. In other words, rpi have taken design decisions which essentially motivate them not to open up these boot blobs, but rather use them as a chokepoint of control over the platform, see also [1]. From this, we can infer that rpi.org will probably never get rid of these boot blobs (as opposed to simply not having found the time/resources to do something about them). [1] https://github.com/nucular/raspi-keygen https://github.com/nucular/raspi-keygen
  - kingosticks 7y ago
    You are right, they probably won't open the blobs if it means circumventing their own DRM, which I think has been shown to be used reasonably. The mpeg license has almost the same argument as the v2 camera, I think we have covered that. But that aside, "as a chokepoint of control over the platform"? What platform are you specifically talking about?
  - HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
My understanding is that they mean open in software not hardware.
- hlandau 7y ago
  This doesn't add up either, since they seem to be effectively walling themselves into not opening up some of the software needed to boot rpis, which remains proprietary. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20261549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20261549
  - HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
    The assumption that they would prefer to handicap their main product because of some unknown deal they have on an accessory seems biased to me. The SoCs that they use are Broadcomm ones, a company known for being hostile to open source. Perhaps the fact that they have now sold over 25 million units of what is essentially their old designs that wheren't selling anymore is opening their eyes on the money that can be made. The developer of the new open source gpu driver is a Broadcomm employee. The point is that for some unknown to us reason they deemed it a good idea to add DRM on a side-project they have. But that doesn't mean they can't make a new camera at some point.
    - hlandau 7y ago
      I agree that if rpi decides not to do camera DRM anymore, this motivation not to get rid of the boot blobs in the main product disappears. Currently they are defending this practice, however. It logically follows that as long as they institute this policy of using DRM on the main product to prevent use of third party camera modules, the boot blobs will remain...
      - HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
        I think people misunderstand what this DRM is about. The Pi has a special connector for a camera. Anyone can use this connector to build their own camera module and they can use the kernel driver that the RPi foundation paid for. But you also need to develop an App for it. The RPi foundation made their own camera accessory and an accompanying app for it. What the DRM does is that it only allows their own accessory to work with the app. So it's more like brand protection than it's market control. There are plenty of other cameras on the market that you can buy. Why they chose the camera to DRM out of all the peripherals I don't know, but the only reasonable place that they can stick it into is the blob that Broadcomm provided. Btw the situation with the binary blob has been going for years and from what I've gathered in the past what's happening is that the foundation members signed an agreement to not reverse engineer anything on the SoC when they made the first Pi. Since then they offered a price for an open source gpu driver but didn't follow it up with more competions. So either Broadcomm shut them down or it paid off in internal pressure since Broadcomm paid and provided the mainline driver used in this version.
somebodythere 7y ago
Someone has published the HMAC key for the camera DRM module: https://gist.github.com/marcan/6dde73a9a0c917cd4fc9784a0a73efe3 https://gist.github.com/marcan/6dde73a9a0c917cd4fc9784a0a73e...

ben_w 7y ago

As a previous line manager one said to me “yes, and I want a pony”. That they want to be more open does not mean they are currently fully open – in fact, it requires them to not yet to be fully open. Their primary goal (last I checked) is to be cheap, being fully open is at the very best their secondary goal.

hlandau 7y ago
That doesn't follow. Firstly, I don't think I've seen any other SBC vendor fail to publish full schematics. This is a peculiarity of rpi's offering. Secondly, nobody is forcing them to add DRM chips to anything. That's not something that can be written off on "a contractual obligation made me do it." They did it of their own will.
- ben_w 7y ago
  Counter hypothesis because I can’t be bothered to research it fully: Pi: “Hello we wish to buy a $thing” Vendor: “Certainly. We sell $thing for ten dollars per unit if it doesn’t have DRM, or five dollars per unit if it does.”
  - hlandau 7y ago
    The camera PCB was made by rpi for specific use with the rpi. The DRM chip is not part of the camera vendor's assembly. It is a separate chip placed on the PCB, therefore placed there by the PCB designer, i.e., by rpi.
    - kingosticks 7y ago
      Ben Upton said: > You can plug any CSI camera into the Raspberry Pi. There's even a kernel driver for the CSI receiver, which we paid for ((link: https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9951525/ https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9951525/) patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9951525/). What you can't do is clone the official v2 camera module and use the default ISP tuning, which we also paid for. https://mobile.twitter.com/EbenUpton/status/1088440503622909952 https://mobile.twitter.com/EbenUpton/status/1088440503622909... Personally I have no problem at all with protecting the investments around add-ons like this module, if it means they continue to persue them.
      - Qworg 7y ago
        I'd prefer if they gave us the full functionality of the device though - the imager is capable of global shutter but it is locked out.
        kingosticks 7y ago
        That's a fair point. Perhaps when camera v3 is released they'll have the option of updating start.elf and removing the restrictions on using this hardware.
    - amelius 7y ago
      Isn't the use of the chip by the user entirely optional?
      - makomk 7y ago
        Well, it's optional in the sense that if you can find a way to use the camera with some board other than a Raspberry Pi then you don't have to use it. If you're doing the intended thing of connecting it to a Raspberry Pi, though? Not optional.
- mtgx 7y ago
  If they wanted to be open they'd probably transition to RISC_V.

Jonnax 7y ago

1) They make a low cost computer where they've put significant work into making it more open software wise. Their revenue stream is through the sale of their hardware, why do they need to allow people to make clones? 2) Maybe it's to do with the terms in which they get the camera module? I don't know but I don't see them selling the camera as interoperable. Your comment just seems to exemplify the phrase: "No good deed goes unpunished" They do something good but freeloaders just turn up and demand more.

hlandau 7y ago
Other SBC makers don't have an issue offering full schematics, yet, due to their smaller size, have relatively more to lose from being cloned. Moreover, I hope nobody believes that a lack of full schematics is going to stop people from making clones. Schematics can be reversed with not too much effort. Due to their large audience and brand recognition, rpi actually has less to fear from clones than smaller SBC vendors. If anything, it seems like they've judged that their large size and brand recognition is something that they can coast on to avoid having to offer what other SBC vendors do. I'm not complaining about rpi existing, I'm pointing out that what they offer is in certain aspects inferior to the offerings of smaller SBC vendors, which is actually surprising, given that their large size should make them much better resourced to match or exceed the offerings of those vendors. This causes me to question whether these values are actually a priority at all, even if they claim so.
- phosphophyllite 7y ago
  Maybe RPi developers deal with with some investors that way? (in order to attract more money)
  - hlandau 7y ago
    The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a nonprofit.
    - morphle 7y ago

mojuba 7y ago

> This stated intention and rpi.org's actions Please, never shorten or distort domain names... I went to rpi.org which turned out to be a spam trap.

avip 7y ago
It's just a standard squatted domain, I don't see any spam trap.
- mojuba 7y ago
  I didn't mean email spam. Yes, domain thing, whatever it's called.

stefan_ 7y ago

Citing the part with the VideoCore is just fully nonsensical. The Raspberry Pi is the only SBC out there with a fully open-source, production-level graphics driver.

pedroaraujo 7y ago

> This stated intention and rpi.org's actions are simply not isomorphic. If they want to make Raspberry Pi more open, firstly, why do they publish only abridged (read: fake) schematics? Why do people tend to dismiss the openness of the RasperryPi with completely unrelated things? This is the classic case of Whataboutism[0]. Just because you can't replicate the entire product in your garage, it doesn't mean that it isn't quite open already. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

benj111 7y ago
I don't agree with the parent but it isn't an example of whataboutism. He's taking issue with the stated aim of openess, with examples he feels aren't open.

KaiserPro 7y ago

> Secondly, why was rpi.org caught adding DRM chips to their optional camera addon board? to stop counterfeit boards. There are many _other_ cameras that you can use for the rpi, so its not like they are trying to block out competition. its to stop people making illegal clones and ripping people off. (cough I'm looking at you amazon) see semi official explanation here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=149426 https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=149426 The people that make the raspberry pi are a not for profit, they use the money made to sponsor children learning to code. Its not like they hide their aims: https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/about/RaspberryPiFoundationStrategy2018%E2%80%932020.pdf https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/about/RaspberryPiFounda... tl;dr: its to stop people making knockoffs, taking money from a foundation who are trying to educate an entire generation.

hlandau 7y ago
Thanks to you and @kingosticks above for digging up these official accounts. Cursory examination of rpi firmware suggests that this DRM logic is implemented in start.elf, one of the proprietary blobs required to boot an rpi. This is, in itself, significant, since opening this blob would obviously make this restriction easy to circumvent. In other words, rpi have taken design decisions which essentially motivate them not to open up these boot blobs, but rather use them as a chokepoint of control over the platform, see also [1]. From this, we can infer that rpi.org will probably never get rid of these boot blobs (as opposed to simply not having found the time/resources to do something about them). [1] https://github.com/nucular/raspi-keygen https://github.com/nucular/raspi-keygen
- kingosticks 7y ago
  You are right, they probably won't open the blobs if it means circumventing their own DRM, which I think has been shown to be used reasonably. The mpeg license has almost the same argument as the v2 camera, I think we have covered that. But that aside, "as a chokepoint of control over the platform"? What platform are you specifically talking about?
- HeadsUpHigh 7y ago

HeadsUpHigh 7y ago

My understanding is that they mean open in software not hardware.

hlandau 7y ago
This doesn't add up either, since they seem to be effectively walling themselves into not opening up some of the software needed to boot rpis, which remains proprietary. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20261549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20261549
- HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
  The assumption that they would prefer to handicap their main product because of some unknown deal they have on an accessory seems biased to me. The SoCs that they use are Broadcomm ones, a company known for being hostile to open source. Perhaps the fact that they have now sold over 25 million units of what is essentially their old designs that wheren't selling anymore is opening their eyes on the money that can be made. The developer of the new open source gpu driver is a Broadcomm employee. The point is that for some unknown to us reason they deemed it a good idea to add DRM on a side-project they have. But that doesn't mean they can't make a new camera at some point.
  - hlandau 7y ago
    I agree that if rpi decides not to do camera DRM anymore, this motivation not to get rid of the boot blobs in the main product disappears. Currently they are defending this practice, however. It logically follows that as long as they institute this policy of using DRM on the main product to prevent use of third party camera modules, the boot blobs will remain...
    - HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
      I think people misunderstand what this DRM is about. The Pi has a special connector for a camera. Anyone can use this connector to build their own camera module and they can use the kernel driver that the RPi foundation paid for. But you also need to develop an App for it. The RPi foundation made their own camera accessory and an accompanying app for it. What the DRM does is that it only allows their own accessory to work with the app. So it's more like brand protection than it's market control. There are plenty of other cameras on the market that you can buy. Why they chose the camera to DRM out of all the peripherals I don't know, but the only reasonable place that they can stick it into is the blob that Broadcomm provided. Btw the situation with the binary blob has been going for years and from what I've gathered in the past what's happening is that the foundation members signed an agreement to not reverse engineer anything on the SoC when they made the first Pi. Since then they offered a price for an open source gpu driver but didn't follow it up with more competions. So either Broadcomm shut them down or it paid off in internal pressure since Broadcomm paid and provided the mainline driver used in this version.

somebodythere 7y ago

Someone has published the HMAC key for the camera DRM module: https://gist.github.com/marcan/6dde73a9a0c917cd4fc9784a0a73efe3 https://gist.github.com/marcan/6dde73a9a0c917cd4fc9784a0a73e...