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I dunno, I’ve seen plenty of startups killed by the mentality that calling their shitty product an ‘MVP’ somehow makes up for how shitty it is.

randomsearch 7y ago
It's very unlikely the bugs killed those startups.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  Depends on how you classify bugs. If a bug is anytime your product doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to, then yeah, I’ve seen startups suffer massively from that. I worked with one that had 90% of new customers churn out in their first month (you might be able to guess, that company doesn’t exist any more). If you broaden your definition to include ‘problems with the code base that significantly slow down new features’, then I’ve seen even more startups die trying to release their ‘v2.0’. The thing about the ‘we’ll iterate on it later’ mentality is that your product has to be in pretty good shape to be able to benefit from small incremental improvements. If it’s a garbage fire then making the smallest changes turns into an arduous nightmare, that inevitably just ends up introducing even more bugs to your product. But to be fair, for as many startups as I’ve seen go out of business due to these problems, I’ve seen just as many stagnate into a state where they have just enough revenue to cover their small payroll, and remain in that state for a very long time.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    What if I take bug to mean what it means? > A software bug is an error, flaw, failure or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. 90% churn out rate is not a software bug... If you mean there was a software bug that was causing that, it sounds like they had a bug that was completely preventing them from providing value. It’s a given your product needs to be able to provide some sort of value. My point is people place much more emphasis on provided value and utility over frustration from bugs
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      But even if the app crashes every time it loads, that would meet your definition of a bug. I’ve never personally seen a single bug so bad that it killed a company, but I’ve seen products so riddled with bugs that they killed companies. An app with chronic stability issues? Those are bugs. Automated processes silently fail some times? Bugs. Interactive processes randomly fail sometimes? Bugs. I’ve seen plenty of companies with ideas that seemed decent fail because they were unable to deliver an adequately functional product, for the sort of reasons I mentioned above. All of which I’d consider bugs.
      - BoorishBears 7y ago
        I already addressed an app crashing every time it loads in another comment. My point wasn’t you can deliver an app that does nothing and succeed. My point was bugginess is not what kills most start ups. Lack of bugginess is not a moat. Your competitors will not automatically fail because your app is the most stable one.
BoorishBears 7y ago
There'll always be examples to the contrary, but usually that’s a problem of not providing enough value. Think about how much crappy software there is out there that people use because it does something they need. If “not having bugs” is literally your only moat, there were always bigger problems
- dustinmr 7y ago
  Examples?
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    I mean, take it to it’s logical extreme, I make an app that does X, but every time you start it, it crashes. I doubt it’s going to be long before my product fails, bugs are affecting the value users derive from it to an extreme degree, past what they can overlook. I honestly can’t even think of a real-world example off the top of my head though. But that’s probably just a testament to how badly you need to screw up for bugs to be the actual reason a product fails, and not some external factor that’s possibly exacerbated by bugginess
    - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
      >>> I make an app that does X, but every time you start it, it crashes. Then it doesn't do X Buggy code is a huge drag on any codebase and any business built on that codebase - absolutely. But if you list all the things you think you MUST fix in a codebase, they are all things that make you as a developers life harder. The bugs that a user sees are the ones that take away the value they get - the ones you see are the ones that make it harder as a developer to work on the code base - they are rarely the same bugs this is the cause of most tension
      - BoorishBears 7y ago
        That’s pretty much my point...

randomsearch 7y ago

It's very unlikely the bugs killed those startups.

AmericanChopper 7y ago
Depends on how you classify bugs. If a bug is anytime your product doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to, then yeah, I’ve seen startups suffer massively from that. I worked with one that had 90% of new customers churn out in their first month (you might be able to guess, that company doesn’t exist any more). If you broaden your definition to include ‘problems with the code base that significantly slow down new features’, then I’ve seen even more startups die trying to release their ‘v2.0’. The thing about the ‘we’ll iterate on it later’ mentality is that your product has to be in pretty good shape to be able to benefit from small incremental improvements. If it’s a garbage fire then making the smallest changes turns into an arduous nightmare, that inevitably just ends up introducing even more bugs to your product. But to be fair, for as many startups as I’ve seen go out of business due to these problems, I’ve seen just as many stagnate into a state where they have just enough revenue to cover their small payroll, and remain in that state for a very long time.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  What if I take bug to mean what it means? > A software bug is an error, flaw, failure or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. 90% churn out rate is not a software bug... If you mean there was a software bug that was causing that, it sounds like they had a bug that was completely preventing them from providing value. It’s a given your product needs to be able to provide some sort of value. My point is people place much more emphasis on provided value and utility over frustration from bugs
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    But even if the app crashes every time it loads, that would meet your definition of a bug. I’ve never personally seen a single bug so bad that it killed a company, but I’ve seen products so riddled with bugs that they killed companies. An app with chronic stability issues? Those are bugs. Automated processes silently fail some times? Bugs. Interactive processes randomly fail sometimes? Bugs. I’ve seen plenty of companies with ideas that seemed decent fail because they were unable to deliver an adequately functional product, for the sort of reasons I mentioned above. All of which I’d consider bugs.
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
      I already addressed an app crashing every time it loads in another comment. My point wasn’t you can deliver an app that does nothing and succeed. My point was bugginess is not what kills most start ups. Lack of bugginess is not a moat. Your competitors will not automatically fail because your app is the most stable one.

BoorishBears 7y ago

There'll always be examples to the contrary, but usually that’s a problem of not providing enough value. Think about how much crappy software there is out there that people use because it does something they need. If “not having bugs” is literally your only moat, there were always bigger problems

dustinmr 7y ago
Examples?
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  I mean, take it to it’s logical extreme, I make an app that does X, but every time you start it, it crashes. I doubt it’s going to be long before my product fails, bugs are affecting the value users derive from it to an extreme degree, past what they can overlook. I honestly can’t even think of a real-world example off the top of my head though. But that’s probably just a testament to how badly you need to screw up for bugs to be the actual reason a product fails, and not some external factor that’s possibly exacerbated by bugginess
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    >>> I make an app that does X, but every time you start it, it crashes. Then it doesn't do X Buggy code is a huge drag on any codebase and any business built on that codebase - absolutely. But if you list all the things you think you MUST fix in a codebase, they are all things that make you as a developers life harder. The bugs that a user sees are the ones that take away the value they get - the ones you see are the ones that make it harder as a developer to work on the code base - they are rarely the same bugs this is the cause of most tension
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
      That’s pretty much my point...