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The only way we could know would be to ask someone who had done both. But of course it's very unlikely there's any such person. If you can win, you probably wou

The only way we could know would be to ask someone who had done both. But of course it's very unlikely there's any such person. If you can win, you probably wouldn't cheat, and if you have to cheat, it's probably because you can't win.

viraptor 7y ago
There are a few cases of well known esports teams caught cheating, who were really good on their own / likely won smaller contests without cheats. Although after the fact becomes known, the opinions / memories may change a lot.
tapland 7y ago
I think plenty of people have done both. Winners can't be cheaters and vice versa is a nice saying but I don't think it holds.
braythwayt 7y ago
Back when I played contract bridge semi-seriously, there were lots and lots of known cheats, all of whom were already world-class players when playing under stringent conditions to prevent cheating. But the moment those conditions were relaxed, they cheated. I don't know why this is even a mystery: These people want to win, and they will do everything, including get as legitimately good as they can, AND cheat if they can get away with it. We see this is lots of other fields: Black hat hackers who clearly are talented enough to make money legitimately, politicians who rig elections (cough--votes suppression--cough) who are probably going to win in their strongholds anyways, unicorns that raise hundred of millions of dollars in funds but still break all sorts of ethical and legal rules... What about "deflate-gate?" Did the New England Patriots need to play fast and loose with footballs to win? Or did the just want to win so badly that they did everything legal, questionable, and illegal to win? Lots of big-name athletes have doped and dope today. Do they need to dope to win? Is it a red-queen's race against other dopers? Or are some of them so focused on winning that they see dope as just part of winning along with the best equipment and the right training and winning the VO2 Max lottery? Some people just want to win, and they want to win so badly they are prepared to get good AND cheat. They think that cheating is part of winning, just as being good is part of winning. I do not think that the only people who cheat are people who couldn't win without cheating.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  p.s. For maximum fun, look into accusations that professional cyclists--including some very big names--are using hidden motors!
  - nradov 7y ago
    Race officials scan for hidden motors at all the major races now so it's impossible for high profile pro riders to get away with that any more.
    - braythwayt 7y ago
      It's true that they scan, and perhaps its true that the current generation of scanners cannot be defeated, but I think we're in violent agreement that some world-class athletes are thought to cheat despite being world-class.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  "I don't know why this is even a mystery: These people want to win, and they will do everything, including get as legitimately good as they can, AND cheat if they can get away with it." That's a good point. Top athletes have a crazy drive to win in addition to being talented. Most of them will do whatever it takes, be it cheating or hurting themselves.

viraptor 7y ago

There are a few cases of well known esports teams caught cheating, who were really good on their own / likely won smaller contests without cheats. Although after the fact becomes known, the opinions / memories may change a lot.

tapland 7y ago

I think plenty of people have done both. Winners can't be cheaters and vice versa is a nice saying but I don't think it holds.

braythwayt 7y ago

Back when I played contract bridge semi-seriously, there were lots and lots of known cheats, all of whom were already world-class players when playing under stringent conditions to prevent cheating. But the moment those conditions were relaxed, they cheated. I don't know why this is even a mystery: These people want to win, and they will do everything, including get as legitimately good as they can, AND cheat if they can get away with it. We see this is lots of other fields: Black hat hackers who clearly are talented enough to make money legitimately, politicians who rig elections (cough--votes suppression--cough) who are probably going to win in their strongholds anyways, unicorns that raise hundred of millions of dollars in funds but still break all sorts of ethical and legal rules... What about "deflate-gate?" Did the New England Patriots need to play fast and loose with footballs to win? Or did the just want to win so badly that they did everything legal, questionable, and illegal to win? Lots of big-name athletes have doped and dope today. Do they need to dope to win? Is it a red-queen's race against other dopers? Or are some of them so focused on winning that they see dope as just part of winning along with the best equipment and the right training and winning the VO2 Max lottery? Some people just want to win, and they want to win so badly they are prepared to get good AND cheat. They think that cheating is part of winning, just as being good is part of winning. I do not think that the only people who cheat are people who couldn't win without cheating.

braythwayt 7y ago
p.s. For maximum fun, look into accusations that professional cyclists--including some very big names--are using hidden motors!
- nradov 7y ago
  Race officials scan for hidden motors at all the major races now so it's impossible for high profile pro riders to get away with that any more.
  - braythwayt 7y ago
    It's true that they scan, and perhaps its true that the current generation of scanners cannot be defeated, but I think we're in violent agreement that some world-class athletes are thought to cheat despite being world-class.
maxxxxx 7y ago
"I don't know why this is even a mystery: These people want to win, and they will do everything, including get as legitimately good as they can, AND cheat if they can get away with it." That's a good point. Top athletes have a crazy drive to win in addition to being talented. Most of them will do whatever it takes, be it cheating or hurting themselves.