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Before swallowing this tripe, one must first believe the "government is your enemy, the market our savior" mantra. Government is a tool that can be wielded ef

Before swallowing this tripe, one must first believe the "government is your enemy, the market our savior" mantra. Government is a tool that can be wielded effectively or ineffectively. Though Americans haven't quite learned how to do anything with this tool (or rather, have forgotten over the last few decades), other people have and they enjoy the benefits, one of which is affordable, effective health care for everyone. Americans too can enjoy these benefits, however too many of them would rather repeat the mantra and eat their tripe, than learn from reality.

alaskamiller 18y ago
I don't think one needs to subscribe to a particular mantra to make healthcare effective. It doesn't matter if it's a government official or a business that getting a doctor to see you, tell you what's wrong, and fix you up, the point is that we ant something like that to happen. What's being argued continuously is how do we get that to happen given the clear disproportionate amount of doctors and resources to people.
bokonist 18y ago
What amazes me is that progressives simultaneously believe that 1) the U.S. government is controlled by special interests ( insurance companies, the AMA, drug companies ) and 2) we should give the government more power to regulate healthcare. If you believe 1), then doing 2) means giving even more power to the special interests. Anybody who wants the US healthcare system to look more like Europe's, must also come up with a realistic way of 1) replacing our Congressional system with a Parliamentary system, and 2) curbing the power of the lobbies. Otherwise, any plan to use government to make healthcare better will be co-opted by the special interests and end up making the healthcare worse.
- jraines 18y ago
  Well, we'd like to curb the influence of special interests before giving the government more power. And while I'm at it, a moon base would be pretty cool, too.
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  collectivists are always cheerful until they meet people who don't agree with them. why do you think socialism works so well for several small european countries? homogeneity.
- Prrometheus 18y ago
  Yes. All institutions are governed by incentives. The Government is not run by angels, but men. Furthermore, being the largest organization of any sort in the entire world, it has a particularly byzantine, inefficient, and wasteful web of contradictory incentives that govern it. It amazes me that people use such sloppy thinking when it comes to politics. "We'll should use the government to do X" is not the end of the conversation. We must ask how likely it is to carry out the goals given it, how much it will cost to do so compared to alternative solutions, etc. Edit: In Economics this line of reasoning is called "Public Choice Theory"
gunderson 18y ago
Marty, Government is not a tool, neither is "the market". People solve problems by creating organizations to address specific needs. If something comes from the government, you get one try (like doing an experiment with one petri dish). If the government does not offer a top-down approach, then often many people will try (so you get many petri dishes and a better experiment). The same argument can be used in favor of healthcare policy at the state level rather than at the Federal level. The idea that the Federal government offers the ideal approach to solving broad problems is fraught with a fundamental misunderstanding of science and the idea of any policy being at its core an experiment. Sadly, those who advocate a single attempt at a solution are very far from thinking of the optimal solution as the result of experimental trial and error. In fact, they go so far as to claim that "free" healthcare (whatever that means) is a "right". The market is not the savior, it's the scientific method!
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "If something comes from the government, you get one try" I tend to be skeptical of "progressive" political thinking, but must admit I was impressed by a quote I just heard in a documentary about Franklin Roosevelt. When someone asked of one of his policies, "Well, what if it doesn't work?" FDR's response was "Well, then we'll need to try something else." I don't hear that from either left or right. The only correct answer for a politician today is whatever their ideology dictates. Obama comes closest to escaping this box, occasionally, but even he has to pander to his base at times, I think. More so than any one particular gaffe, I think that Bush's biggest shortcoming has been his total unwillingness to "try something else."

alaskamiller 18y ago

I don't think one needs to subscribe to a particular mantra to make healthcare effective. It doesn't matter if it's a government official or a business that getting a doctor to see you, tell you what's wrong, and fix you up, the point is that we ant something like that to happen. What's being argued continuously is how do we get that to happen given the clear disproportionate amount of doctors and resources to people.

bokonist 18y ago

What amazes me is that progressives simultaneously believe that 1) the U.S. government is controlled by special interests ( insurance companies, the AMA, drug companies ) and 2) we should give the government more power to regulate healthcare. If you believe 1), then doing 2) means giving even more power to the special interests. Anybody who wants the US healthcare system to look more like Europe's, must also come up with a realistic way of 1) replacing our Congressional system with a Parliamentary system, and 2) curbing the power of the lobbies. Otherwise, any plan to use government to make healthcare better will be co-opted by the special interests and end up making the healthcare worse.

jraines 18y ago
Well, we'd like to curb the influence of special interests before giving the government more power. And while I'm at it, a moon base would be pretty cool, too.
nazgulnarsil 18y ago
collectivists are always cheerful until they meet people who don't agree with them. why do you think socialism works so well for several small european countries? homogeneity.
Prrometheus 18y ago
Yes. All institutions are governed by incentives. The Government is not run by angels, but men. Furthermore, being the largest organization of any sort in the entire world, it has a particularly byzantine, inefficient, and wasteful web of contradictory incentives that govern it. It amazes me that people use such sloppy thinking when it comes to politics. "We'll should use the government to do X" is not the end of the conversation. We must ask how likely it is to carry out the goals given it, how much it will cost to do so compared to alternative solutions, etc. Edit: In Economics this line of reasoning is called "Public Choice Theory"

gunderson 18y ago

Marty, Government is not a tool, neither is "the market". People solve problems by creating organizations to address specific needs. If something comes from the government, you get one try (like doing an experiment with one petri dish). If the government does not offer a top-down approach, then often many people will try (so you get many petri dishes and a better experiment). The same argument can be used in favor of healthcare policy at the state level rather than at the Federal level. The idea that the Federal government offers the ideal approach to solving broad problems is fraught with a fundamental misunderstanding of science and the idea of any policy being at its core an experiment. Sadly, those who advocate a single attempt at a solution are very far from thinking of the optimal solution as the result of experimental trial and error. In fact, they go so far as to claim that "free" healthcare (whatever that means) is a "right". The market is not the savior, it's the scientific method!

jimbokun 18y ago
"If something comes from the government, you get one try" I tend to be skeptical of "progressive" political thinking, but must admit I was impressed by a quote I just heard in a documentary about Franklin Roosevelt. When someone asked of one of his policies, "Well, what if it doesn't work?" FDR's response was "Well, then we'll need to try something else." I don't hear that from either left or right. The only correct answer for a politician today is whatever their ideology dictates. Obama comes closest to escaping this box, occasionally, but even he has to pander to his base at times, I think. More so than any one particular gaffe, I think that Bush's biggest shortcoming has been his total unwillingness to "try something else."