9 ms·

Citizens on Patrol: What If Your Neighbor Could Give You a Parking Ticket?

28 points by danso 7y ago

x38iq84n 7y ago
Brilliant idea! This is definitely not going to wreck communities and will not be misused. The proposal should include a band to be worn around one's arm, then the resemblance to soviet era civilian helpers will be complete.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and especially ideological flamebait to HN? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
TulliusCicero 7y ago
There's a part of me that would love to see this for cars parked in bike lanes. Bikes already get almost no infrastructure compared to driving or walking, having what little there is so often blocked by the more privileged party adds insult to injury. Not to mention the danger it puts cyclists into where they have to move onto the road where drivers may not be expecting bikes (because, y'know, there's a bike lane on the street). Of course I realize that this could easily be abused, and you'd instantly get a lot of irate drivers calling for volunteers giving tickets to cyclists who blow through red lights, and it's tricky where exactly you'd want to draw a line there on citizen enforcement. It seems like a sociologically simpler option may be soon within reach, though: once we have fully self-driving cars, you could commission a few parking enforcement bots that would tirelessly hand out tickets, in a more or less unbiased manner, all day and night long!
- ydj 7y ago
  Why is it abuse to ticket cyclists that don’t stop at red lights?
  - mrtweetyhack 7y ago
    Because he's special
  - wanderer2323 7y ago
    It's likely not but it is also probably not a good fit for citizen enforcement, which is why it was given as an illustration.
  - toast0 7y ago
    Parking tickets are much more reasonable to delegate than a moving violation. You don't have to stop the violator, because they're usually not present, and you can leave the ticket on the vehicle. The circumstances that lead to a finding of violation are subject to less dispute. Cyclist claims light was green, citizen enforcer claims light was red, is harder to prove vs parker says time was 5:30 and citizen enforcer says time was 4:30. Some parking tickets are more sensitive to location -- if the vehicle is very near the boundary between acceptable and not acceptable, perhaps an escalation to a sworn officer is in order, but parking in a red zone / parking in a bike lane / parking in disabled without a visible permit is usually clear cut.
  - nosianu 7y ago
    It isn't, but the problem I see is this: With so much power there should be a requirement of proof. No problem for parked cars, just take a picture. And for cyclists going through a red light? An always-on camera? Without proof I do see an increased potential for irate "enforcers" to take it out on someone. I tend to think that those who are going to volunteer are going to be a self-selecting subset of the population who take "law & order" more seriously and react more strongly to violations.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    Wasn't talking about a particular infraction specifically, just in general giving citizens police-ish powers seems open to abuse. For example, it gives you something that you can hold over someone's head/blackmail them with, "gimme X or I'll submit this ticket". There's also the possibility of lying in various forms (e.g. photoshop or otherwise fake a picture to submit). These problems exist to some extent with professionals too, but it's easier to work on the trust angle with a small pool of salaried people that presumably want to keep their jobs for a long time, as opposed to a large pool of random citizens for whom this is a side gig or volunteer effort.
eternauta3k 7y ago
You can do this in Buenos Aires. It's great for reporting cars parked in the bike lane or blocking your garage.
RandomBacon 7y ago
Houston has this: https://www.houstontx.gov/parking/volunteer.html https://www.houstontx.gov/parking/volunteer.html Take a 4 hour class, and you can write tickets for cars parked illegally in handicap spots.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  Only handicap spots? If so, why? Just the easiest thing to spot and not misdiagnose, I guess?
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Probably has the most sympathetic victims and has near-zero chance for self-dealing.
    - m463 7y ago
      Would be interesting to see if there's a backlash if they could do: - non-EV cars in EV charging spots - EVs not hooked up to charge in EV charging spots
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        I'm not sure I'd support that and I daily drive a short-range pure EV (Nissan LEAF).
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        Can you elaborate on why you're not sure you'd support it? "Charging spots are for charging" seems very reasonable.
        gpm 7y ago
        For one - you can unplug someone else's car and take a picture of it...
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
Bet city officials wouldn't work for free but hey, sucker citizens might.
arcticfox 7y ago
This reminds me of the 1990 novel 'Earth' by Dan Brin, which featured a near-future populace that all wear the equivalent of Google Glass, and use it to self-police everything they see. Like an open source version of a police state. Not saying it's a good thing, but I feel like it's inevitable with the ubiquity of cameras.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Yep. Just imagine how effective boycotts will be. You just look at the grocery store shelf, and you automagically see which foods you can buy. They'll be able to give tickets on cars much easier as well. Just have AI's pour over everyone's monday video after hours, and get that ticket for parking in the handicapped spot in your mail on wednesday. Most of the impact will be far more intimate though. Bartenders' glasses will just say: "Do Not Serve" when they look at a person. (Automatically keeping track of how many drinks each person is getting.) Women and men at bars will be able to just look at each other, and it will say "Sex Assault Risk", "Has Kids" or "Violent Crime Conviction" or whatever. And that's just connecting the glasses to the public databases. They would also be connected to the small private data repositories updated by a person's close friend group. Imagine the information overlays there. Everything from "Has Girlfriend", to "STD Reported", to "Puts Out", to "Small Penis". I can imagine life becoming almost an open book in the far future.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    >and get that ticket for parking in the handicapped spot in your mail on wednesday. // Lol, I think your age might be showing? Surely you get the charge auto-deducted from your account. That way you can get auto-fined by the bank for having insufficient 'ShelbyvilleCryptoCoin' to pay. Then get auto-fined for getting an unauthorised over-draft, then auto-charged by the government for financial irregularity, then auto-fired by work for "bringing disrepute on the company". Then your 'worker car privelege' gets rescinded and you get picked up by a robocop, citizen, before you even finish your commute. First your wife knows is an automated message saying she no longer owns the house as it's been sold to fund your trip to a prison colony on Rigel Prime ... Or, maybe I watched too much dystopian sci-fi.
inflatableDodo 7y ago
Police are supposed to be citizens on patrol. How about having the existing police follow this short list, while we are being innovative; >To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment. >To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. >To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws. >To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives. >To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life. >To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective. >To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. >To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary, of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty. >To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
40acres 7y ago
As a minority I'm conflicted. Many urban areas have tensions between minorities and police, thousands of people face police harassment every year over minor infractions. On the other hand, as services like Nextdoor illustrate, many neighbors have an inherent fear and discrimination against their minority neighbors, and can show the same type of overreacting behavior as the police.. I guess I'd rather have enforcement from individuals without license to kill.
- DenisM 7y ago
  It's a very important point - we can influence and hold responsible police through democratic procedures, for example measure racial bias and implement de-biasing measures, but there is no accountability for the mob. Which is why we have the police in the first place.
  - noobermin 7y ago
    In theory. However, as recent events have shown, the police and the whole justice system becomes an institution that protects their own, including things like prosecutors declining to bring strong cases against police abuse since they work together on other cases. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's more complicated than one being good and one being bad.
- JudgeWapner 7y ago
  > police harassment every year over minor infractions. I'm confused by this phrase. do you think that minor infractions shouldn't be enforced at all? is it "harassment" anytime someone faces a consequence for violating the law?
  - 40acres 7y ago
    When looking at the major police brutality cases over the past few years you will notice that there is a disproportionate amount of force used by police relative to the threat. Eric Garner was accused of selling illegal cigarettes, was this a crime? Yes. Should he been put in a choke hold and held down by multiple officers despite being clearly subdued and repeatedly saying that he could not breathe? No. Sandra Bland was killed over a parking ticket. Recently, in Phoenix, a young family was threaten horribly because the daughter "shoplifted" a doll without the parents knowledge. There is a clear pattern of disproportionate force used in relation to the actual activity being prosecuted.
bluedino 7y ago
I’d love this. We have people parking in the fire lanes of stores, anywhere they feel in a parking lot (make up your own spot, the lines are just suggestions), parking on sidewalks and in front yards. Even parking in the streets when parking is not allowed, backing up traffic. It’s just chaos. Local police are underfunded so they are understaffed and are too busy to enforce code or parking violations. And nobody pays their parking tickets anymore anyway. You have to rack up 20+ before they will put a boot on your car.
- hawaiianbrah 7y ago
  What’s wrong with parking in front yards assuming the owner is OK with it?
  - danso 7y ago
    Many cities have laws against parking on lawns. Even if the owner is OK with it (or is parking on their own lawn), the neighbors might not be for property value reasons. There's also the problem of vehicle oil leeching into the soil: https://www.ksla.com/story/7065953/shreveport-council-approves-ban-on-parking-in-front-lawn/ https://www.ksla.com/story/7065953/shreveport-council-approv... https://www.modbee.com/news/article108667517.html https://www.modbee.com/news/article108667517.html
United857 7y ago
Many condos/townhome developments in the US have "homeowners associations" (HOAs) which often empower your neighbors to do precisely that -- enforce parking and other rules within the bounds of the development. Speaking from personal experience, while it's private property and legally allowed, and despite the HOA having good intentions in theory, this leads to an attitude of distrust amongst neighbors, people weaponizing petty complaints or viewing their neighbors as "informers", and/or a cabal being vocal, passive-aggressive complainers about everything. A better solution would be farming this out to a private unaffiliated company -- although by no means perfect, would prevent the detrimental effects on quality of community.
- AbrahamParangi 7y ago
  The obvious implication of farming it out would be that instead of simply being beholden to your neighbors, you would concentrate power in whoever or whatever group is paying the firm. That seems strictly worse to me.
- droithomme 7y ago
  On the HOA note I lived in a couple. Both times a small club of elderly women with nothing to do during the day would walk the neighborhood multiple times per day and enforce every single rule for every neighbor that they didn't like, which was nearly everyone. Car 13" from the curb? Citation. Shrubbery not trimmed? Citation. Visiting relative's car parked in driveway more than 3 nights in a row? Citation. Guest parking on street overnight? Citation. Watering your lawn not enough, too much, or during the wrong hours? Citation, citation, citation. Some tomcat or stray dog in the neighborhood pooped in your flowerbed and you didn't even notice it and thus didn't remove it? Citation. Fence paint peeling? Citation. Repainted the fence the same color as before without getting written approval from the HOA architectural committee, which was never even established? Citation. Got the committee established and got written permission to paint the same color as before but painted your fence a slightly different color of grey from the neighbors' since theirs have faded over the years? Citation. Unapproved lawn buddha statue in the backyard where no one can see it? Citation. American flag in a flag holder on the post next to the front door? Citation. These types see themselves as defenders of law and order, protectors of good, and take pride in that not a single infraction on any day anywhere goes without a citation. They know all, and see all, and disapprove of all. And the HOA management association loves them because they bring in tens of thousands of additional revenue per month, and even enables them to confiscate a few houses now and then should the homeowner contest the charges and refuse. I would never ever ever ever live in an HOA controlled area again.
joshe 7y ago
All the horrors of Nextdoor, brought into meatspace.
- Balgair 7y ago
  For other HNers out there that are not so up to date with Nextdoor: https://mobile.twitter.com/bestofnextdoor?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/bestofnextdoor?lang=en
olivermarks 7y ago
people aren't rational and hold grudges and prejudices. Empowering random people to make life hell for their neighbors isn't smart
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  In fairness, we already do this when we allow police to enforce the law. To be honest, police are people too. They are every bit as irrational as the rest of us. I'm sure they hold just as many prejudices as I do. (Maybe even the same prejudices that I do?) Police would, at least, have more training though. So there's that.
  - olivermarks 7y ago
    Police have to adhere to well defined law enforcement
    - bilbo0s 7y ago
      And people have to adhere to the law, but sometimes they don't. Again, police are people. Sure they're supposed to follow the rules. But sometimes they don't. What makes police better is that they at least have the training. So they have the knowledge of how to do it right. Whether or not they do it right in fact is an entirely separate issue.
UweSchmidt 7y ago
Having the citizens police each other, spy on each other is a characteristic of totalitarian regimes, notably present in both communist Eastern Germany and Nazi Germany. A fundamental part of democracy is to trust a citizen by default - not just with voting, but with behaving in general. Before police and courts come into play there needs to be a little leeway, for people to act, make mistakes, see their actions conflicting with the interest of others, to correct themselves etc. Fundamentally, people should be put in a cooperative environment; having a significant part of the population be in "cop mode", looking for offenses, would be very harmful for society.
- HillaryBriss 7y ago
  > people should be put in a cooperative environment yes. but, a case can be made that someone who parks in a spot reserved for people with disabilities, or parks their car in the middle of a bike lane is disrupting and damaging the cooperative environment. furthermore, in the US the presence of guns and people willing to use guns means that confronting such a person directly is significantly riskier than it would be in some other, truly civilized, country.
t_akosuke 7y ago
mobike and other bike/scooter/whatever sharing apps already turn users into police already. One is encouraged to report a bike that has been parked in an out of reach place, such as in someone's private backyard. I'm quite upset myself when I'm following the map for the only available bike nearby only to find out that it's obviously inside someone's apartment, so I'm torn about my feelings - i don't want to turn into an unpaid vigilante for some Chinese company, but I'm also pretty mad at the assholes who do this and would rather they not get away with it so easily!
Aspos 7y ago
Similar program is in use in UAE for years. Anyone can use police app to snap a photo of illegally parked car. Specially trained police staff review hundreds of photos per day and issue tickets in one click. Far quicker, safer, easier approach.
- Balgair 7y ago
  Oh wow! Yeah, now this could work actually. Great comment, thanks for bringing this up!
HillaryBriss 7y ago
They wouldn't. We're on pretty good terms.
robocat 7y ago
If enough people had driving cameras, and if insurance is mandatory, I guess individuals could report dangerous driving to insurance companies, and cause increased insurance premiums for dangerous or reckless drivers. Which is weird because then insurance companies become the police. I wish we could report video to the police for dangerous driving... The police waste money enforcing rules that are only loosely correlated with preventing danger. Why not use the strongest signal possible - actual dangerous driving or near misses etc. To avoid the "granny reporting everything" problem and avoid the "anti-social" problem, only allow three submissions per year?

28 points by danso 7y ago

Brilliant idea! This is definitely not going to wreck communities and will not be misused. The proposal should include a band to be worn around one's arm, then the resemblance to soviet era civilian helpers will be complete.

dang 7y ago
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and especially ideological flamebait to HN? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

TulliusCicero 7y ago

There's a part of me that would love to see this for cars parked in bike lanes. Bikes already get almost no infrastructure compared to driving or walking, having what little there is so often blocked by the more privileged party adds insult to injury. Not to mention the danger it puts cyclists into where they have to move onto the road where drivers may not be expecting bikes (because, y'know, there's a bike lane on the street). Of course I realize that this could easily be abused, and you'd instantly get a lot of irate drivers calling for volunteers giving tickets to cyclists who blow through red lights, and it's tricky where exactly you'd want to draw a line there on citizen enforcement. It seems like a sociologically simpler option may be soon within reach, though: once we have fully self-driving cars, you could commission a few parking enforcement bots that would tirelessly hand out tickets, in a more or less unbiased manner, all day and night long!

ydj 7y ago
Why is it abuse to ticket cyclists that don’t stop at red lights?
- mrtweetyhack 7y ago
  Because he's special
- wanderer2323 7y ago
  It's likely not but it is also probably not a good fit for citizen enforcement, which is why it was given as an illustration.
- toast0 7y ago
  Parking tickets are much more reasonable to delegate than a moving violation. You don't have to stop the violator, because they're usually not present, and you can leave the ticket on the vehicle. The circumstances that lead to a finding of violation are subject to less dispute. Cyclist claims light was green, citizen enforcer claims light was red, is harder to prove vs parker says time was 5:30 and citizen enforcer says time was 4:30. Some parking tickets are more sensitive to location -- if the vehicle is very near the boundary between acceptable and not acceptable, perhaps an escalation to a sworn officer is in order, but parking in a red zone / parking in a bike lane / parking in disabled without a visible permit is usually clear cut.
- nosianu 7y ago
  It isn't, but the problem I see is this: With so much power there should be a requirement of proof. No problem for parked cars, just take a picture. And for cyclists going through a red light? An always-on camera? Without proof I do see an increased potential for irate "enforcers" to take it out on someone. I tend to think that those who are going to volunteer are going to be a self-selecting subset of the population who take "law & order" more seriously and react more strongly to violations.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  Wasn't talking about a particular infraction specifically, just in general giving citizens police-ish powers seems open to abuse. For example, it gives you something that you can hold over someone's head/blackmail them with, "gimme X or I'll submit this ticket". There's also the possibility of lying in various forms (e.g. photoshop or otherwise fake a picture to submit). These problems exist to some extent with professionals too, but it's easier to work on the trust angle with a small pool of salaried people that presumably want to keep their jobs for a long time, as opposed to a large pool of random citizens for whom this is a side gig or volunteer effort.

eternauta3k 7y ago

You can do this in Buenos Aires. It's great for reporting cars parked in the bike lane or blocking your garage.

RandomBacon 7y ago

Houston has this: https://www.houstontx.gov/parking/volunteer.html https://www.houstontx.gov/parking/volunteer.html Take a 4 hour class, and you can write tickets for cars parked illegally in handicap spots.

flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
Only handicap spots? If so, why? Just the easiest thing to spot and not misdiagnose, I guess?
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Probably has the most sympathetic victims and has near-zero chance for self-dealing.
  - m463 7y ago
    Would be interesting to see if there's a backlash if they could do: - non-EV cars in EV charging spots - EVs not hooked up to charge in EV charging spots
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      I'm not sure I'd support that and I daily drive a short-range pure EV (Nissan LEAF).
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        Can you elaborate on why you're not sure you'd support it? "Charging spots are for charging" seems very reasonable.
        gpm 7y ago
        For one - you can unplug someone else's car and take a picture of it...

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

Bet city officials wouldn't work for free but hey, sucker citizens might.

arcticfox 7y ago

This reminds me of the 1990 novel 'Earth' by Dan Brin, which featured a near-future populace that all wear the equivalent of Google Glass, and use it to self-police everything they see. Like an open source version of a police state. Not saying it's a good thing, but I feel like it's inevitable with the ubiquity of cameras.

bilbo0s 7y ago
Yep. Just imagine how effective boycotts will be. You just look at the grocery store shelf, and you automagically see which foods you can buy. They'll be able to give tickets on cars much easier as well. Just have AI's pour over everyone's monday video after hours, and get that ticket for parking in the handicapped spot in your mail on wednesday. Most of the impact will be far more intimate though. Bartenders' glasses will just say: "Do Not Serve" when they look at a person. (Automatically keeping track of how many drinks each person is getting.) Women and men at bars will be able to just look at each other, and it will say "Sex Assault Risk", "Has Kids" or "Violent Crime Conviction" or whatever. And that's just connecting the glasses to the public databases. They would also be connected to the small private data repositories updated by a person's close friend group. Imagine the information overlays there. Everything from "Has Girlfriend", to "STD Reported", to "Puts Out", to "Small Penis". I can imagine life becoming almost an open book in the far future.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  >and get that ticket for parking in the handicapped spot in your mail on wednesday. // Lol, I think your age might be showing? Surely you get the charge auto-deducted from your account. That way you can get auto-fined by the bank for having insufficient 'ShelbyvilleCryptoCoin' to pay. Then get auto-fined for getting an unauthorised over-draft, then auto-charged by the government for financial irregularity, then auto-fired by work for "bringing disrepute on the company". Then your 'worker car privelege' gets rescinded and you get picked up by a robocop, citizen, before you even finish your commute. First your wife knows is an automated message saying she no longer owns the house as it's been sold to fund your trip to a prison colony on Rigel Prime ... Or, maybe I watched too much dystopian sci-fi.

inflatableDodo 7y ago

Police are supposed to be citizens on patrol. How about having the existing police follow this short list, while we are being innovative; >To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment. >To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. >To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws. >To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives. >To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life. >To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective. >To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. >To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary, of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty. >To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

40acres 7y ago

As a minority I'm conflicted. Many urban areas have tensions between minorities and police, thousands of people face police harassment every year over minor infractions. On the other hand, as services like Nextdoor illustrate, many neighbors have an inherent fear and discrimination against their minority neighbors, and can show the same type of overreacting behavior as the police.. I guess I'd rather have enforcement from individuals without license to kill.

DenisM 7y ago
It's a very important point - we can influence and hold responsible police through democratic procedures, for example measure racial bias and implement de-biasing measures, but there is no accountability for the mob. Which is why we have the police in the first place.
- noobermin 7y ago
  In theory. However, as recent events have shown, the police and the whole justice system becomes an institution that protects their own, including things like prosecutors declining to bring strong cases against police abuse since they work together on other cases. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's more complicated than one being good and one being bad.
JudgeWapner 7y ago
> police harassment every year over minor infractions. I'm confused by this phrase. do you think that minor infractions shouldn't be enforced at all? is it "harassment" anytime someone faces a consequence for violating the law?
- 40acres 7y ago
  When looking at the major police brutality cases over the past few years you will notice that there is a disproportionate amount of force used by police relative to the threat. Eric Garner was accused of selling illegal cigarettes, was this a crime? Yes. Should he been put in a choke hold and held down by multiple officers despite being clearly subdued and repeatedly saying that he could not breathe? No. Sandra Bland was killed over a parking ticket. Recently, in Phoenix, a young family was threaten horribly because the daughter "shoplifted" a doll without the parents knowledge. There is a clear pattern of disproportionate force used in relation to the actual activity being prosecuted.

bluedino 7y ago

I’d love this. We have people parking in the fire lanes of stores, anywhere they feel in a parking lot (make up your own spot, the lines are just suggestions), parking on sidewalks and in front yards. Even parking in the streets when parking is not allowed, backing up traffic. It’s just chaos. Local police are underfunded so they are understaffed and are too busy to enforce code or parking violations. And nobody pays their parking tickets anymore anyway. You have to rack up 20+ before they will put a boot on your car.

hawaiianbrah 7y ago
What’s wrong with parking in front yards assuming the owner is OK with it?
- danso 7y ago
  Many cities have laws against parking on lawns. Even if the owner is OK with it (or is parking on their own lawn), the neighbors might not be for property value reasons. There's also the problem of vehicle oil leeching into the soil: https://www.ksla.com/story/7065953/shreveport-council-approves-ban-on-parking-in-front-lawn/ https://www.ksla.com/story/7065953/shreveport-council-approv... https://www.modbee.com/news/article108667517.html https://www.modbee.com/news/article108667517.html

United857 7y ago

Many condos/townhome developments in the US have "homeowners associations" (HOAs) which often empower your neighbors to do precisely that -- enforce parking and other rules within the bounds of the development. Speaking from personal experience, while it's private property and legally allowed, and despite the HOA having good intentions in theory, this leads to an attitude of distrust amongst neighbors, people weaponizing petty complaints or viewing their neighbors as "informers", and/or a cabal being vocal, passive-aggressive complainers about everything. A better solution would be farming this out to a private unaffiliated company -- although by no means perfect, would prevent the detrimental effects on quality of community.

AbrahamParangi 7y ago
The obvious implication of farming it out would be that instead of simply being beholden to your neighbors, you would concentrate power in whoever or whatever group is paying the firm. That seems strictly worse to me.
droithomme 7y ago
On the HOA note I lived in a couple. Both times a small club of elderly women with nothing to do during the day would walk the neighborhood multiple times per day and enforce every single rule for every neighbor that they didn't like, which was nearly everyone. Car 13" from the curb? Citation. Shrubbery not trimmed? Citation. Visiting relative's car parked in driveway more than 3 nights in a row? Citation. Guest parking on street overnight? Citation. Watering your lawn not enough, too much, or during the wrong hours? Citation, citation, citation. Some tomcat or stray dog in the neighborhood pooped in your flowerbed and you didn't even notice it and thus didn't remove it? Citation. Fence paint peeling? Citation. Repainted the fence the same color as before without getting written approval from the HOA architectural committee, which was never even established? Citation. Got the committee established and got written permission to paint the same color as before but painted your fence a slightly different color of grey from the neighbors' since theirs have faded over the years? Citation. Unapproved lawn buddha statue in the backyard where no one can see it? Citation. American flag in a flag holder on the post next to the front door? Citation. These types see themselves as defenders of law and order, protectors of good, and take pride in that not a single infraction on any day anywhere goes without a citation. They know all, and see all, and disapprove of all. And the HOA management association loves them because they bring in tens of thousands of additional revenue per month, and even enables them to confiscate a few houses now and then should the homeowner contest the charges and refuse. I would never ever ever ever live in an HOA controlled area again.

joshe 7y ago

All the horrors of Nextdoor, brought into meatspace.

Balgair 7y ago
For other HNers out there that are not so up to date with Nextdoor: https://mobile.twitter.com/bestofnextdoor?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/bestofnextdoor?lang=en

olivermarks 7y ago

people aren't rational and hold grudges and prejudices. Empowering random people to make life hell for their neighbors isn't smart

bilbo0s 7y ago
In fairness, we already do this when we allow police to enforce the law. To be honest, police are people too. They are every bit as irrational as the rest of us. I'm sure they hold just as many prejudices as I do. (Maybe even the same prejudices that I do?) Police would, at least, have more training though. So there's that.
- olivermarks 7y ago
  Police have to adhere to well defined law enforcement
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    And people have to adhere to the law, but sometimes they don't. Again, police are people. Sure they're supposed to follow the rules. But sometimes they don't. What makes police better is that they at least have the training. So they have the knowledge of how to do it right. Whether or not they do it right in fact is an entirely separate issue.

UweSchmidt 7y ago

Having the citizens police each other, spy on each other is a characteristic of totalitarian regimes, notably present in both communist Eastern Germany and Nazi Germany. A fundamental part of democracy is to trust a citizen by default - not just with voting, but with behaving in general. Before police and courts come into play there needs to be a little leeway, for people to act, make mistakes, see their actions conflicting with the interest of others, to correct themselves etc. Fundamentally, people should be put in a cooperative environment; having a significant part of the population be in "cop mode", looking for offenses, would be very harmful for society.

HillaryBriss 7y ago
> people should be put in a cooperative environment yes. but, a case can be made that someone who parks in a spot reserved for people with disabilities, or parks their car in the middle of a bike lane is disrupting and damaging the cooperative environment. furthermore, in the US the presence of guns and people willing to use guns means that confronting such a person directly is significantly riskier than it would be in some other, truly civilized, country.

t_akosuke 7y ago

mobike and other bike/scooter/whatever sharing apps already turn users into police already. One is encouraged to report a bike that has been parked in an out of reach place, such as in someone's private backyard. I'm quite upset myself when I'm following the map for the only available bike nearby only to find out that it's obviously inside someone's apartment, so I'm torn about my feelings - i don't want to turn into an unpaid vigilante for some Chinese company, but I'm also pretty mad at the assholes who do this and would rather they not get away with it so easily!

Aspos 7y ago

Similar program is in use in UAE for years. Anyone can use police app to snap a photo of illegally parked car. Specially trained police staff review hundreds of photos per day and issue tickets in one click. Far quicker, safer, easier approach.

Balgair 7y ago
Oh wow! Yeah, now this could work actually. Great comment, thanks for bringing this up!

HillaryBriss 7y ago

They wouldn't. We're on pretty good terms.

robocat 7y ago

If enough people had driving cameras, and if insurance is mandatory, I guess individuals could report dangerous driving to insurance companies, and cause increased insurance premiums for dangerous or reckless drivers. Which is weird because then insurance companies become the police. I wish we could report video to the police for dangerous driving... The police waste money enforcing rules that are only loosely correlated with preventing danger. Why not use the strongest signal possible - actual dangerous driving or near misses etc. To avoid the "granny reporting everything" problem and avoid the "anti-social" problem, only allow three submissions per year?