7 ms·

> Most Americans’ daily routines depend on single-use items and throwaway plastic packaging, much of it flowing into streams and oceans, polluting our ecosystem

> Most Americans’ daily routines depend on single-use items and throwaway plastic packaging, much of it flowing into streams and oceans, polluting our ecosystems. This is unsubstantiated sensational bs. Plastics do end up in landfill or incinerator, but the US does not have waterway pollution problem.

DanBC 7y ago
There are microplastics in every US waterway. https://owi.usgs.gov/vizlab/microplastics/ https://owi.usgs.gov/vizlab/microplastics/
- cannedslime 7y ago
  Sure there is, but there is a huge difference between dumping plastic waste into rivers like it happens in India, Africa etc and then being able to measure trace amounts of microplastics in the environment. Of course plastics left in nature will eventually find its way into the water streams.
  - notfromhere 7y ago
    I mean its still a problem. "We're not as bad as the third world" isn't really an argument
  - DanBC 7y ago
    You might want to read up on that thing about plastic coming from a few chines and indian rivers, because it's wrong.
vanderZwan 7y ago
And do you have a source for that or is your assertion just as unsubstantiated?
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  No, he's quite right: https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution Most American and European plastic waste finds its way into landfills. "In the chart below we see the global distribution of mismanaged plastic waste aggregated by world region. The East Asia and Pacific region dominates global mismanaged plastic waste, accounting for 60 percent of the world total. There is a wide gap between East Asia and the other regions — South Asia ranks second but contributes around 5 times less with 11 percent of the total. This is followed by Sub-Saharan Africa (9 percent); Middle East & North Africa (8.3 percent); Latin America (7.2 percent); Europe and Central Asia (3.6 percent) and North America (1 percent). If we aim to address the ocean plastic problem, an understanding of this global picture is important. It highlights the fundamental role of waste management in preventing ocean pollution; whilst countries across North America and Europe generate significant quantities of plastic waste (particularly on a per capita basis), well-managed waste streams mean that very little of this is at risk of ocean pollution. "
  - vanderZwan 7y ago
    Thank you for taking the time to dig for sources and elaborate (although you basically did someone else's "homework" here).
    - scottlocklin 7y ago
      It's unfortunately not typically discussed. If you really want to solve the problem, being even more careful about plastics in the West really isn't going to move the needle. Knowing this is important.
      - hunter2_ 7y ago
        Ironically, the extra care such as banning plastic bags, straws, etc. in the West does lead to this very conversation becoming normal across lay people rather than just those who "really want to solve the problem," which probably does have significant value as well. Like a raising-awareness event.
    - 7y ago
DoingIsLearning 7y ago
I mean they do accurately describe one of the major mechanisms for ocean plastic pollution but it is absolutely innacurate to say that the source of this plastic is from US waterways.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  So you're saying _USA_ waterways are not a sink for plastic pollution (and source of ocean plastics)? Or you just think a professor of USA history should point out parallel issues in other countries?
  - DoingIsLearning 7y ago
    90 percent of all the plastic that reaches the world's oceans gets flushed through just 10 rivers: The Yangtze, the Indus, Yellow River, Hai River, the Nile, the Ganges, Pearl River, Amur River, the Niger, and the Mekong (in that order). [1] [1] Christian Schmidt, Tobias Krauth and Stephan Wagner (2017), Export of plastic debris by rivers into the Sea https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.est.7b02368 https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.est.7b02368
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Yes, yes, and if we point the finger harder at _other_ people then our own failure to provide a model for action will be fine. Us: You need to clean up the Yangtze. Them: Well what are you doing about your plastic waste Us: We're shipping it to you!
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      Ahh, the places receiving so much in US, and to a lesser extent other Western imports, their own putative systems for dealing with the waste and recycling it break down completely. Leading to entire towns built on processing the West's waste meaning it's everywhere. "Their fault, nothing to do with us" This is blaming the recipient of the bullet for the shooting.
      - 7y ago
mikojan 7y ago
That's great. What about the countries you're shipping your plastic waste to?
- fredsir 7y ago
  > What about the countries you're shipping your plastic waste to Or ordering from. Their pollution is funded by you.
- cannedslime 7y ago
  No one ships plastic waste unless you mean E-waste... The OP was about the fact that no western country just throws household plastic waste into the water, it goes to landfills or is very often incinerated, plastic is a pretty good carbon source for combustion you know...
  - mikojan 7y ago
    > No one ships plastic waste unless ... Yes. Unless we do. Which we are. And it ends up in the water. And we remain responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions.
    - cannedslime 7y ago
      Ok, we apparently still ship plastic waste to India and Malaysia. Though about 85% is incinerated, at least here in Denmark. Crazy really. Most plastics can't be easily recycled, it actually makes sense just to burn it really.
  - jamil7 7y ago
    The US and various European countries definately ship plastic waste to other countries for "recycling".
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Yup, people in UK carefully wash plastics, use separate bins, special collection trucks .. then the waste is shipped for sorting and recycling, only it's much more profitable to dump the plastics and take the extra money paid to "recycle" it. Richer nations have companies who know what's happening, but the people think "we're recycling, saving the planet", and the companies get more money, and the poor people make much more money than they would have. Everyone wins! I assume this is still happening but there have been several exposés, leading some people to no longer bother recycling. As a reaction to that some city/area councils will fine you for not separating recyclables; our city vastly reduced the size of our bins (trash cans). Most of our family waste seems to be unrecyclable plastic packaging.
walterstucco 7y ago
Prove it.
cannedslime 7y ago
Yeah this really isn't much of a problem in modern western societies... Other places in the world that happens for sure, but not US or europe.
ebg13 7y ago
If you can ignore that stuff, though, the history of the rise of plastics is itself actually super fascinating.
peterwwillis 7y ago
They say "much" ("a large amount") of it ends up in waterways, which is substantiated. As one tiny example, look at Mr. Trashwheel. It collects ten tons of trash on a rainy day. If you don't believe me, here is a sped-up video of it collecting plastic, styrofoam, and other single-use trash items[1]. And here are statistics on the trash gathered[2]. 649,236 plastic bags, 880,646 plastic bottles, and plenty of other miscellaneous plastic pieces. All of this disrupts natural ecosystems, and is ingested by animals who then get sick, and later gets into us as microplastics when we ingest the animals. This is the reason nearly all of our food and beverages contain microplastics. If this doesn't seem that bad, the above example is from a single stream into a single harbor in a single city. Now imagine the national scale. But plastic isn't the only pollutant of US waterways. Bacterial matter, nutrient excess, and industrial toxins regularly find their way through the watershed into main waterways, affecting marine life as well as humans. Waterway pollution is a big issue in the US. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=GgnTBxSMo3g https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=GgnTBxSMo3g [2] http://blogs.ubalt.edu/ubmag/the-problem-of-plastics/ http://blogs.ubalt.edu/ubmag/the-problem-of-plastics/

DanBC 7y ago

There are microplastics in every US waterway. https://owi.usgs.gov/vizlab/microplastics/ https://owi.usgs.gov/vizlab/microplastics/

cannedslime 7y ago
Sure there is, but there is a huge difference between dumping plastic waste into rivers like it happens in India, Africa etc and then being able to measure trace amounts of microplastics in the environment. Of course plastics left in nature will eventually find its way into the water streams.
- notfromhere 7y ago
  I mean its still a problem. "We're not as bad as the third world" isn't really an argument
- DanBC 7y ago
  You might want to read up on that thing about plastic coming from a few chines and indian rivers, because it's wrong.

vanderZwan 7y ago

And do you have a source for that or is your assertion just as unsubstantiated?

scottlocklin 7y ago
No, he's quite right: https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution Most American and European plastic waste finds its way into landfills. "In the chart below we see the global distribution of mismanaged plastic waste aggregated by world region. The East Asia and Pacific region dominates global mismanaged plastic waste, accounting for 60 percent of the world total. There is a wide gap between East Asia and the other regions — South Asia ranks second but contributes around 5 times less with 11 percent of the total. This is followed by Sub-Saharan Africa (9 percent); Middle East & North Africa (8.3 percent); Latin America (7.2 percent); Europe and Central Asia (3.6 percent) and North America (1 percent). If we aim to address the ocean plastic problem, an understanding of this global picture is important. It highlights the fundamental role of waste management in preventing ocean pollution; whilst countries across North America and Europe generate significant quantities of plastic waste (particularly on a per capita basis), well-managed waste streams mean that very little of this is at risk of ocean pollution. "
- vanderZwan 7y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to dig for sources and elaborate (although you basically did someone else's "homework" here).
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    It's unfortunately not typically discussed. If you really want to solve the problem, being even more careful about plastics in the West really isn't going to move the needle. Knowing this is important.
    - hunter2_ 7y ago
      Ironically, the extra care such as banning plastic bags, straws, etc. in the West does lead to this very conversation becoming normal across lay people rather than just those who "really want to solve the problem," which probably does have significant value as well. Like a raising-awareness event.
  - 7y ago

DoingIsLearning 7y ago

I mean they do accurately describe one of the major mechanisms for ocean plastic pollution but it is absolutely innacurate to say that the source of this plastic is from US waterways.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
So you're saying _USA_ waterways are not a sink for plastic pollution (and source of ocean plastics)? Or you just think a professor of USA history should point out parallel issues in other countries?
- DoingIsLearning 7y ago
  90 percent of all the plastic that reaches the world's oceans gets flushed through just 10 rivers: The Yangtze, the Indus, Yellow River, Hai River, the Nile, the Ganges, Pearl River, Amur River, the Niger, and the Mekong (in that order). [1] [1] Christian Schmidt, Tobias Krauth and Stephan Wagner (2017), Export of plastic debris by rivers into the Sea https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.est.7b02368 https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.est.7b02368
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Yes, yes, and if we point the finger harder at _other_ people then our own failure to provide a model for action will be fine. Us: You need to clean up the Yangtze. Them: Well what are you doing about your plastic waste Us: We're shipping it to you!
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Ahh, the places receiving so much in US, and to a lesser extent other Western imports, their own putative systems for dealing with the waste and recycling it break down completely. Leading to entire towns built on processing the West's waste meaning it's everywhere. "Their fault, nothing to do with us" This is blaming the recipient of the bullet for the shooting.
    - 7y ago

mikojan 7y ago

That's great. What about the countries you're shipping your plastic waste to?

fredsir 7y ago
> What about the countries you're shipping your plastic waste to Or ordering from. Their pollution is funded by you.
cannedslime 7y ago
No one ships plastic waste unless you mean E-waste... The OP was about the fact that no western country just throws household plastic waste into the water, it goes to landfills or is very often incinerated, plastic is a pretty good carbon source for combustion you know...
- mikojan 7y ago
  > No one ships plastic waste unless ... Yes. Unless we do. Which we are. And it ends up in the water. And we remain responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions.
  - cannedslime 7y ago
    Ok, we apparently still ship plastic waste to India and Malaysia. Though about 85% is incinerated, at least here in Denmark. Crazy really. Most plastics can't be easily recycled, it actually makes sense just to burn it really.
- jamil7 7y ago
  The US and various European countries definately ship plastic waste to other countries for "recycling".
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Yup, people in UK carefully wash plastics, use separate bins, special collection trucks .. then the waste is shipped for sorting and recycling, only it's much more profitable to dump the plastics and take the extra money paid to "recycle" it. Richer nations have companies who know what's happening, but the people think "we're recycling, saving the planet", and the companies get more money, and the poor people make much more money than they would have. Everyone wins! I assume this is still happening but there have been several exposés, leading some people to no longer bother recycling. As a reaction to that some city/area councils will fine you for not separating recyclables; our city vastly reduced the size of our bins (trash cans). Most of our family waste seems to be unrecyclable plastic packaging.

walterstucco 7y ago

Prove it.

cannedslime 7y ago

Yeah this really isn't much of a problem in modern western societies... Other places in the world that happens for sure, but not US or europe.

ebg13 7y ago

If you can ignore that stuff, though, the history of the rise of plastics is itself actually super fascinating.

peterwwillis 7y ago

They say "much" ("a large amount") of it ends up in waterways, which is substantiated. As one tiny example, look at Mr. Trashwheel. It collects ten tons of trash on a rainy day. If you don't believe me, here is a sped-up video of it collecting plastic, styrofoam, and other single-use trash items[1]. And here are statistics on the trash gathered[2]. 649,236 plastic bags, 880,646 plastic bottles, and plenty of other miscellaneous plastic pieces. All of this disrupts natural ecosystems, and is ingested by animals who then get sick, and later gets into us as microplastics when we ingest the animals. This is the reason nearly all of our food and beverages contain microplastics. If this doesn't seem that bad, the above example is from a single stream into a single harbor in a single city. Now imagine the national scale. But plastic isn't the only pollutant of US waterways. Bacterial matter, nutrient excess, and industrial toxins regularly find their way through the watershed into main waterways, affecting marine life as well as humans. Waterway pollution is a big issue in the US. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=GgnTBxSMo3g https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=GgnTBxSMo3g [2] http://blogs.ubalt.edu/ubmag/the-problem-of-plastics/ http://blogs.ubalt.edu/ubmag/the-problem-of-plastics/