4 ms·

To be completely fair, there can also be situations where you have a very good manager, but still have to extinguish fires, overwork because of deadlines, etc.

To be completely fair, there can also be situations where you have a very good manager, but still have to extinguish fires, overwork because of deadlines, etc. And the kicker is that the manager can't tell you that it's because of upper management because that would destroy morale even more, precipitating an earlier collapse than if they'd just kept their mouth shut (not to mention getting them fired). The astute employee can detect this by observing the manager being reasonable in every respect where they can realistically do so despite the chaos. Also, you can sometimes observe them being in the early wave to leave such a company.

bongobongo 7y ago
As a person who was a manager in the situation you describe, I disagree. My obligations are as follows: (1) to my co-workers/reports as fellow human beings; (2) to my work as a professional; (3) to the company that pays me for my professional services. When a company has bad leadership, it makes everybody miserable and often ends in failure—you are screwed twice, first by being exploited/overworked and second by it all being for naught. I will tell my reports when upper management is garbage. I will even encourage them to consider their options. Why? Because they aren’t children. They are adults with lives and families. And I’d be a hypocrite otherwise, because I’d also be considering my options. Edit: I actually now feel pretty strongly that “I have to hide the truth about the company from my reports” is unjustifiable, self-serving nonsense bordering on the unethical.
- twic 7y ago
  To be clear: those numbered points are supposed to be in decreasing priority order, right? Colleagues > community > company.
  - bongobongo 7y ago
    Absolutely.
- bumby 7y ago
  > to my co-workers/reports as fellow human beings I don't want to read too much into your sentiments here, but I'm assuming you would consider upper management as co-workers who you feel deserve to be treated fairly. I would extend this to say they probably deserve not to be undermined by being described as "garbage" any more than those under you deserve to be gossiped about. I'm not saying that's the tact you use, but there's a world of difference in saying, "It's all stupid management's fault!" and saying "I know our team disagrees with management's strategy but here's how I think we can get them on our side." One is proactive, still trying to serve the company/mission and the other is a way to pass the buck and destroy morale.
  - bongobongo 7y ago
    Of course. My only point is that it's not the job of anybody to cover for the incompetence of their superiors.
quanticle 7y ago
And the kicker is that the manager can't tell you that it's because of upper management because that would destroy morale even more, I'm not sure that's the case. I've worked at a few large corporations, and I've always appreciated it when my direct manager has told me flat out that a specific deadline or priority shift is due to politics outside of the organization. In fact, I'll go further to say that doing what you recommend will do more to erode morale than being honest and forthright with the team. Whenever there's an urgent request or a priority shift, the team will ask questions, and will expect the manager to have an answer. There is a temptation here, to try to reach for grandiose answers in order to try to justify why the new priority is the most important thing in the world. But the problem is that people talk. They'll quickly find out whether the shift in direction was due to an actual changing market need or whether it was due some executive wanting to look good in front of his or her peers in the boardroom. And when that information leaks, it'll do far more to destroy morale than a simple admission of politics up front would have. If the manager is lying to the team about this stuff, what else could they be lying about?
- CanWaxSol 7y ago
  I agree with this one. The managers job isn't to hide it. The managers job is to push back, and then communicate to their team in a way that is honest without stirring up resentment. Trust is a lot like privacy in the sense that if you lose too much of it, it can't be recovered. I work for someone I don't trust now.. it's pretty lousy existence.

bongobongo 7y ago

As a person who was a manager in the situation you describe, I disagree. My obligations are as follows: (1) to my co-workers/reports as fellow human beings; (2) to my work as a professional; (3) to the company that pays me for my professional services. When a company has bad leadership, it makes everybody miserable and often ends in failure—you are screwed twice, first by being exploited/overworked and second by it all being for naught. I will tell my reports when upper management is garbage. I will even encourage them to consider their options. Why? Because they aren’t children. They are adults with lives and families. And I’d be a hypocrite otherwise, because I’d also be considering my options. Edit: I actually now feel pretty strongly that “I have to hide the truth about the company from my reports” is unjustifiable, self-serving nonsense bordering on the unethical.

twic 7y ago
To be clear: those numbered points are supposed to be in decreasing priority order, right? Colleagues > community > company.
- bongobongo 7y ago
  Absolutely.
bumby 7y ago
> to my co-workers/reports as fellow human beings I don't want to read too much into your sentiments here, but I'm assuming you would consider upper management as co-workers who you feel deserve to be treated fairly. I would extend this to say they probably deserve not to be undermined by being described as "garbage" any more than those under you deserve to be gossiped about. I'm not saying that's the tact you use, but there's a world of difference in saying, "It's all stupid management's fault!" and saying "I know our team disagrees with management's strategy but here's how I think we can get them on our side." One is proactive, still trying to serve the company/mission and the other is a way to pass the buck and destroy morale.
- bongobongo 7y ago
  Of course. My only point is that it's not the job of anybody to cover for the incompetence of their superiors.

quanticle 7y ago

And the kicker is that the manager can't tell you that it's because of upper management because that would destroy morale even more, I'm not sure that's the case. I've worked at a few large corporations, and I've always appreciated it when my direct manager has told me flat out that a specific deadline or priority shift is due to politics outside of the organization. In fact, I'll go further to say that doing what you recommend will do more to erode morale than being honest and forthright with the team. Whenever there's an urgent request or a priority shift, the team will ask questions, and will expect the manager to have an answer. There is a temptation here, to try to reach for grandiose answers in order to try to justify why the new priority is the most important thing in the world. But the problem is that people talk. They'll quickly find out whether the shift in direction was due to an actual changing market need or whether it was due some executive wanting to look good in front of his or her peers in the boardroom. And when that information leaks, it'll do far more to destroy morale than a simple admission of politics up front would have. If the manager is lying to the team about this stuff, what else could they be lying about?

CanWaxSol 7y ago
I agree with this one. The managers job isn't to hide it. The managers job is to push back, and then communicate to their team in a way that is honest without stirring up resentment. Trust is a lot like privacy in the sense that if you lose too much of it, it can't be recovered. I work for someone I don't trust now.. it's pretty lousy existence.