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> Yes, the plan to jail those who hold cryptocurrency in a democratic country is preposterous No it isn’t. We jail people who hold child pornography in democra

by hjk05 7y ago

> Yes, the plan to jail those who hold cryptocurrency in a democratic country is preposterous No it isn’t. We jail people who hold child pornography in democratic countries as well. The core of a democratic country is that it’s governed by democratically elected representatives, not that it’s citizens be allowed access to whatever they want independent of criminal consequences. I get you and others are calling to the sentiment of “how can we be free if we aren’t free to x” but the value of that sentiment isn’t independent of what X is. You aren’t free to rob banks and you aren’t free to print you own paper currency. Just because crypto is digital and “difficult to stop”(it isn’t though) does not mean that it has to be freely available to business and individuals. It’s still up to our democratically elected representatives to decide if they feel private institutions printing money without control will damage the economy significantly enough to not allow it.

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
>If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with crypto tokens & block chain can technically be held liable for possessing a crypto currency when they run their program? Please appropriate your logic on that.
- awelkie 7y ago
  >If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with [automated ponzi schemes] can technically be held liable for [creating a ponzi scheme] when they run their program? I don't see the issue. When a democratic society thinks something isn't good, they can outlaw it. There are all sorts of regulations on financial transactions and investments already. I'm not trying to imply that cryptocurrencies are ponzi schemes, just that when something is illegal, doing it on your computer doesn't make it not illegal.
  - awelkie 7y ago
    Furthermore, were cryptocurrencies to become illegal, it would probably be similar to computer viruses; It's fine to play with viruses on your personal computer or in a lab, but it's illegal to use one "in the wild." So I doubt it would be as absurd as you claim.
    - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
      > It's fine to play with viruses on your personal computer or in a lab, but it's illegal to use one "in the wild." I hope cops understand the difference. When I was in school, computer science teachers asked us to remove the shoes, because 'virus from it' would infect the computers at the lab.
    - lentil_soup 7y ago
      I guess similar to how a chemical lab might use compounds that are illegal in the wild or a pharmaceutical company holding classified drugs.
  - MadSudaca 7y ago
    Found the authoritarian.
    - Bakary 7y ago
      This implies that crypto is a democratizing force. So far, it's been mostly early adopters wanting to preserve the system under which they are wealthy and powerful. Who can blame them? I'd do the exact same. But in other words, the same age-old pattern that is barely any different from the banking system that crypto was supposed to bypass, except the inequality actually manages to be quite higher.
      - MadSudaca 7y ago
        I don't know what you're talking about. I call authoritarian someone who thinks that they can circumvent an individual's freedoms arbitrarily by finding enough people to agree with him/her. The topic of cryptocurrency is only one that is good at revealing someone's authoritarian tendencies.
        oarsinsync 7y ago
        I think there's a line between being authoritarian and supporting a system where democratically elected officials can enact laws. This isn't about crypto, this is about respecting rule of law in society. > I call authoritarian someone who thinks that they can circumvent an individual's freedoms arbitrarily by finding enough people to agree with him/her. I suspect there are a lot of people who agree that counterfeiting money isn't something that should be allowed. Are they all authoritarian as well?
        MadSudaca 7y ago
        Sure, but there are principles that come before the laws themselves. If following the principles leads to a degradation of the rule of law what would you do?
0x445442 7y ago
> you aren’t free to print you own paper currency As far as I know, in the U.S. you are free to print your own paper currency, just so long as it doesn't conterfeit that which is produced by the Federal Reserve Bank. Also, there's nothing illegal about conducting transactions with it either, provided you can find willing trade partners.
- impendia 7y ago
  > in the U.S. you are free to print your own paper currency Indeed, this is currently done. For example: http://www.ithacahours.com/ http://www.ithacahours.com/
- johnnycab 7y ago
  >As far as I know, in the U.S. you are free to print your own paper currency This is not the case, when a 'private' currency gains traction or seemingly encroaches a territory, which is traditionally assigned to government ─ it gets shutdown. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/liberty-dollar-creator-awaits-his-fate-behind-bars.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/liberty-dollar-creator... https://www.openpr.com/news/25136/TUC-IMPROVING-THE-US-ECONOMY-BY-THE-CIRCULATION-OF-THEIR-PRIVATE-CURRENCY-TODAY.html https://www.openpr.com/news/25136/TUC-IMPROVING-THE-US-ECONO...
  - aatharuv 7y ago
    They called their currency a dollar. If they had called them "freedom rounds", they would have been fine. Or if they had been owned by Disney for that matter...
  - 411mrc 7y ago
    http://www.berkshares.org/ http://www.berkshares.org/ It's been around for a long time.
- nradov 7y ago
  Right this is totally legal provided you report any income obtained through such a scheme on your tax return in fair market US dollar terms. It's no different than bartering (which is also legal). The other caveat is that if someone owes you a debt you can't require them to pay in your own "funny money" currency. You have to accept US dollars if offered, otherwise the debt won't be legally enforceable.
captainredbeard 7y ago
Not everyone agrees on the validity of mob rule.
timtas 7y ago
> I get you and others are calling to the sentiment of “how can we be free if we aren’t free to x” but the value of that sentiment isn’t independent of what X is. Do you propose an objective criteria by which a state can legitimately dictate behavior on one set of Xs and not another set of Xs? If not, then you are by omission saying that every totalitarian state is legitimate. I suspect you might want to say, if the 51% wants something, that makes it legitimate. In that case you are're saying a murderous state is legitimate. (I won't go full Godwyn here, but suffice to say that many democratically elected regimes have committed legal murder on a massive scale and continued to enjoy majority support.) Hey, here's an idea for an objective criteria: Does X invade any other particular person's life, liberty or property? Banning crypto fails that test.

by hjk05 7y ago

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago

>If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with crypto tokens & block chain can technically be held liable for possessing a crypto currency when they run their program? Please appropriate your logic on that.

awelkie 7y ago
>If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with [automated ponzi schemes] can technically be held liable for [creating a ponzi scheme] when they run their program? I don't see the issue. When a democratic society thinks something isn't good, they can outlaw it. There are all sorts of regulations on financial transactions and investments already. I'm not trying to imply that cryptocurrencies are ponzi schemes, just that when something is illegal, doing it on your computer doesn't make it not illegal.
- awelkie 7y ago
  Furthermore, were cryptocurrencies to become illegal, it would probably be similar to computer viruses; It's fine to play with viruses on your personal computer or in a lab, but it's illegal to use one "in the wild." So I doubt it would be as absurd as you claim.
  - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
    > It's fine to play with viruses on your personal computer or in a lab, but it's illegal to use one "in the wild." I hope cops understand the difference. When I was in school, computer science teachers asked us to remove the shoes, because 'virus from it' would infect the computers at the lab.
  - lentil_soup 7y ago
    I guess similar to how a chemical lab might use compounds that are illegal in the wild or a pharmaceutical company holding classified drugs.
- MadSudaca 7y ago
  Found the authoritarian.
  - Bakary 7y ago
    This implies that crypto is a democratizing force. So far, it's been mostly early adopters wanting to preserve the system under which they are wealthy and powerful. Who can blame them? I'd do the exact same. But in other words, the same age-old pattern that is barely any different from the banking system that crypto was supposed to bypass, except the inequality actually manages to be quite higher.
    - MadSudaca 7y ago
      I don't know what you're talking about. I call authoritarian someone who thinks that they can circumvent an individual's freedoms arbitrarily by finding enough people to agree with him/her. The topic of cryptocurrency is only one that is good at revealing someone's authoritarian tendencies.
      - oarsinsync 7y ago
        I think there's a line between being authoritarian and supporting a system where democratically elected officials can enact laws. This isn't about crypto, this is about respecting rule of law in society. > I call authoritarian someone who thinks that they can circumvent an individual's freedoms arbitrarily by finding enough people to agree with him/her. I suspect there are a lot of people who agree that counterfeiting money isn't something that should be allowed. Are they all authoritarian as well?
        MadSudaca 7y ago
        Sure, but there are principles that come before the laws themselves. If following the principles leads to a degradation of the rule of law what would you do?

0x445442 7y ago

> you aren’t free to print you own paper currency As far as I know, in the U.S. you are free to print your own paper currency, just so long as it doesn't conterfeit that which is produced by the Federal Reserve Bank. Also, there's nothing illegal about conducting transactions with it either, provided you can find willing trade partners.

impendia 7y ago
> in the U.S. you are free to print your own paper currency Indeed, this is currently done. For example: http://www.ithacahours.com/ http://www.ithacahours.com/
johnnycab 7y ago
>As far as I know, in the U.S. you are free to print your own paper currency This is not the case, when a 'private' currency gains traction or seemingly encroaches a territory, which is traditionally assigned to government ─ it gets shutdown. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/liberty-dollar-creator-awaits-his-fate-behind-bars.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/liberty-dollar-creator... https://www.openpr.com/news/25136/TUC-IMPROVING-THE-US-ECONOMY-BY-THE-CIRCULATION-OF-THEIR-PRIVATE-CURRENCY-TODAY.html https://www.openpr.com/news/25136/TUC-IMPROVING-THE-US-ECONO...
- aatharuv 7y ago
  They called their currency a dollar. If they had called them "freedom rounds", they would have been fine. Or if they had been owned by Disney for that matter...
- 411mrc 7y ago
  http://www.berkshares.org/ http://www.berkshares.org/ It's been around for a long time.
nradov 7y ago
Right this is totally legal provided you report any income obtained through such a scheme on your tax return in fair market US dollar terms. It's no different than bartering (which is also legal). The other caveat is that if someone owes you a debt you can't require them to pay in your own "funny money" currency. You have to accept US dollars if offered, otherwise the debt won't be legally enforceable.

captainredbeard 7y ago

Not everyone agrees on the validity of mob rule.

timtas 7y ago

> I get you and others are calling to the sentiment of “how can we be free if we aren’t free to x” but the value of that sentiment isn’t independent of what X is. Do you propose an objective criteria by which a state can legitimately dictate behavior on one set of Xs and not another set of Xs? If not, then you are by omission saying that every totalitarian state is legitimate. I suspect you might want to say, if the 51% wants something, that makes it legitimate. In that case you are're saying a murderous state is legitimate. (I won't go full Godwyn here, but suffice to say that many democratically elected regimes have committed legal murder on a massive scale and continued to enjoy majority support.) Hey, here's an idea for an objective criteria: Does X invade any other particular person's life, liberty or property? Banning crypto fails that test.