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I've lived in China and seen how this plays out. Facebook's new Libra Blockchain will be a centralized bank but way more dangerous. It will allow for a worldwid

I've lived in China and seen how this plays out. Facebook's new Libra Blockchain will be a centralized bank but way more dangerous. It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you for wrong speak or wrong think, your money and many services will be inaccessible. Further, they have no mandate like the central bank does to increase employment. Their mandate is to make money for corporations. This will lead to global social unrest. This will put some third-world countries in complete control by Facebook. I mean, whoever runs the currency, is the country. But in this case, it will be completely controlled, as it's also many of those countries main source of communication. Therefore, if Facebook's Libra is a countries main currency and social network, that country will be owned by Facebook. Finally, the regulations on crypto and blockchain are still new. This is in Facebook's advantage as they can start lobbying to have these laws in their favor. They can argue for less transparency, as they are a bank, and this fits with their new privacy marketing message. This is extremely subversive and Europe is already rightly pushing back. America will be next. On one hand, I love seeing the existing financial system panic when new technology comes out. On the other hand, under no circumstances will I accept a world where Facebook started the one world currency.

tjkrusinski 7y ago
This isn't the case, your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account.
- FridgeSeal 7y ago
  Yeah not now, but given everything else they’ve done, it wouldn’t be a surprised if they introduced it as a feature later down the line.
  - allannienhuis 7y ago
    That's kind of the definition of FUD spreading, isn't it? How is anyone supposed to defend themselves against accusations like that?
    - FridgeSeal 7y ago
      > That's kind of the definition of FUD spreading, isn't it? How is anyone supposed to defend themselves against accusations like that? By not being an incredibly shady company in the first place? Am I just supposed to disregard everything FB is notorious for, just in case any concerns I raise might be FUD?
- app4soft 7y ago
  > your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account Nice try, Mark!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  For now. but they said the same thing when they bought WhatsApp -- that it would remain separate from messenger. Now they're merging the two. So, I wouldn't necessarily trust that what Facebook says will stay true forever. It will stay true just long enough for most people to have forgotten that promise.
- bamboozled 7y ago
  “Sign-in with Facebook” is all it takes to lose your right to privacy though. It’s pretty clear this is an attempt to take advantage of network effects and dominate the market early. There is also no guarantee that while FB will be one many validators, I dont see any hard limit on the number of validators required for the network to be operable. So over time a single validators could take over. No one will bother changing coins in this case though as it will be too inconvenient.
  - mrfenk 7y ago
    Use a different wallet then. Of course it will be tied to your FB account if you use a FB wallet. How will they kick out the existing validators?
    - bamboozled 7y ago
      Of course, but I guess the fear is %99 of people will use the “default” wallet” and be locked into a surveillance system for all transactions online. To your question, not necessarily kick them out intentionally, but if the companies that back the hardware to validate transactions fold, are taken over or pull out of the venture, then the number of validators diminishes and you can end up with something resembling a 51% attack [1] which gives a single corporation total control. This is a problem with all crypto’s unless something is special about Libra which is possible I guess. Then again, even in this case, the dominate player(s) could change the protocol to work in their favour removing the need for x number of validators present. [1]https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/51-attack.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/51-attack.asp Given Facebooks quickly diminishing popularity, I’m not sure this is ever going to really workout anyway.
    - delfinom 7y ago
      Proprietary blockchain. Supposedly they ~may~ just ~may~ release the documentation in a few years.
app4soft 7y ago
> It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you, your money and many services will be inaccessible. And this is creepy thing here.
- mrfenk 7y ago
  A lot of people in this thread don't distinct between Libra the currency and Calibra the Facebook wallet. A wallet controlled by Facebook is indeed worrying, and I hope that there will be enough worthy competing alternatives. The Libra network on the other hand looks very solid.
  - elcomet 7y ago
    Libra will also be controlled by Facebook. This is a private blockchain. They can block your account no matter what your wallet is.
    - madeofpalk 7y ago
      While I have zero interest in Libra/Calibra/whatever, Libra specifically _isnt_ controlled by Facebook. It's, at least legally, controlled by a non-profit consortium that Facebook is a part of, but I do not think is a controlling owner of.
      - Retra 7y ago
        Their interests can surely be aligned with a minor amount of high-level bargaining.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - mrfenk 7y ago
      Unless this whole project is one big conspiracy, I don't see how this is true. Libra will be governed by at least a couple of dozen big corporations, some of which are in direct conflict with FB's agenda. FB will have to convince 67% of the nodes to make any non standard action and keep it a secret. That's a huge business risk. And from my reading of the white paper I don't see how you can actually block an address from submitting or receiving transactions. Am I missing something?
menzoic 7y ago
Libra isn't completely centralized. There's a long list of other corporations and institutions that will be validators. Facebook won't have 100% or even 10% control.
- yabadabadoodoo 7y ago
  LOL.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  Ok, but you’ll admit it’s ideologically centralized, and that it’s facebook’s interests centralized. Facebook launches Silicon Valley Bank and... people argue about the most minor technical details.
- chris_wot 7y ago
  In no way can you trust Facebook to take back control. In fact, in no way can you trust Facebook full stop.
r00fus 7y ago
For this reason, unless the backers of this are powerful enough I see this being under intense scrutiny and possibly heavily regulated. Fin system panicking? hah - Visa backs this. And no downside for FB if this fails (other than opportunity cost).
- ei8htyfi5e 7y ago
  Visa is a player and doesn't represent the financial system at large. They're doing this because they realize it's existential that they do. Look at what regulators will say in the coming days. Europe is already saying under no circumstances will they allow a sovereign currency to operate unabated. The US Federal Reserve is a major source of American power. It's "rumored" the US has invaded countries before for threatening to price oil in alternate currencies. You think they're going to accept this affront to their global hegemony laying down?
  - r00fus 7y ago
    I agree with you. The fact that there is one player makes me wonder how many other players are in the game but not announced. If the regulatory agencies aren't captured, we should expect crypto (at least stablecoins) to get some regulation soon.
ei8htyfi5e 7y ago
Also, to be up front, some of these points I found on a thread early this morning and I copied it to a note pad for later, then went to sleep. When I woke up, the page had refreshed and I have no way of crediting the original author. But I think it's important to share, so I did. If you are the author, or know who wrote parts of this, please tell me and I will credit you/them.
chii 7y ago
> Therefore, if Facebook's Libra is a countries main currency and social network, that country will be owned by Facebook. And if you swap Facebook with the Federal Reserve, the above is already currently true!
- arduanika 7y ago
  Really? Does the Federal Reserve control the flow of information in those countries? GP's point is, if Libra achieves its vision of a global currency yet remains under Facebook's ultimate control, then a single entity centralizes not only [all the combined power wielded jointly today by the Fed / ECB / IMF / World Bank over a country], but also [its gateway to news and social life, with the power and evidently the willingness to bend all elections to its will].

tjkrusinski 7y ago

This isn't the case, your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account.

FridgeSeal 7y ago
Yeah not now, but given everything else they’ve done, it wouldn’t be a surprised if they introduced it as a feature later down the line.
- allannienhuis 7y ago
  That's kind of the definition of FUD spreading, isn't it? How is anyone supposed to defend themselves against accusations like that?
  - FridgeSeal 7y ago
    > That's kind of the definition of FUD spreading, isn't it? How is anyone supposed to defend themselves against accusations like that? By not being an incredibly shady company in the first place? Am I just supposed to disregard everything FB is notorious for, just in case any concerns I raise might be FUD?
app4soft 7y ago
> your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account Nice try, Mark!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bonestamp2 7y ago
For now. but they said the same thing when they bought WhatsApp -- that it would remain separate from messenger. Now they're merging the two. So, I wouldn't necessarily trust that what Facebook says will stay true forever. It will stay true just long enough for most people to have forgotten that promise.
bamboozled 7y ago
“Sign-in with Facebook” is all it takes to lose your right to privacy though. It’s pretty clear this is an attempt to take advantage of network effects and dominate the market early. There is also no guarantee that while FB will be one many validators, I dont see any hard limit on the number of validators required for the network to be operable. So over time a single validators could take over. No one will bother changing coins in this case though as it will be too inconvenient.
- mrfenk 7y ago
  Use a different wallet then. Of course it will be tied to your FB account if you use a FB wallet. How will they kick out the existing validators?
  - bamboozled 7y ago
    Of course, but I guess the fear is %99 of people will use the “default” wallet” and be locked into a surveillance system for all transactions online. To your question, not necessarily kick them out intentionally, but if the companies that back the hardware to validate transactions fold, are taken over or pull out of the venture, then the number of validators diminishes and you can end up with something resembling a 51% attack [1] which gives a single corporation total control. This is a problem with all crypto’s unless something is special about Libra which is possible I guess. Then again, even in this case, the dominate player(s) could change the protocol to work in their favour removing the need for x number of validators present. [1]https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/51-attack.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/51-attack.asp Given Facebooks quickly diminishing popularity, I’m not sure this is ever going to really workout anyway.
  - delfinom 7y ago
    Proprietary blockchain. Supposedly they ~may~ just ~may~ release the documentation in a few years.

app4soft 7y ago

> It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you, your money and many services will be inaccessible. And this is creepy thing here.

mrfenk 7y ago
A lot of people in this thread don't distinct between Libra the currency and Calibra the Facebook wallet. A wallet controlled by Facebook is indeed worrying, and I hope that there will be enough worthy competing alternatives. The Libra network on the other hand looks very solid.
- elcomet 7y ago
  Libra will also be controlled by Facebook. This is a private blockchain. They can block your account no matter what your wallet is.
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    While I have zero interest in Libra/Calibra/whatever, Libra specifically _isnt_ controlled by Facebook. It's, at least legally, controlled by a non-profit consortium that Facebook is a part of, but I do not think is a controlling owner of.
    - Retra 7y ago
      Their interests can surely be aligned with a minor amount of high-level bargaining.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - mrfenk 7y ago
    Unless this whole project is one big conspiracy, I don't see how this is true. Libra will be governed by at least a couple of dozen big corporations, some of which are in direct conflict with FB's agenda. FB will have to convince 67% of the nodes to make any non standard action and keep it a secret. That's a huge business risk. And from my reading of the white paper I don't see how you can actually block an address from submitting or receiving transactions. Am I missing something?

menzoic 7y ago

Libra isn't completely centralized. There's a long list of other corporations and institutions that will be validators. Facebook won't have 100% or even 10% control.

yabadabadoodoo 7y ago
LOL.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Ok, but you’ll admit it’s ideologically centralized, and that it’s facebook’s interests centralized. Facebook launches Silicon Valley Bank and... people argue about the most minor technical details.
chris_wot 7y ago
In no way can you trust Facebook to take back control. In fact, in no way can you trust Facebook full stop.

r00fus 7y ago

For this reason, unless the backers of this are powerful enough I see this being under intense scrutiny and possibly heavily regulated. Fin system panicking? hah - Visa backs this. And no downside for FB if this fails (other than opportunity cost).

ei8htyfi5e 7y ago
Visa is a player and doesn't represent the financial system at large. They're doing this because they realize it's existential that they do. Look at what regulators will say in the coming days. Europe is already saying under no circumstances will they allow a sovereign currency to operate unabated. The US Federal Reserve is a major source of American power. It's "rumored" the US has invaded countries before for threatening to price oil in alternate currencies. You think they're going to accept this affront to their global hegemony laying down?
- r00fus 7y ago
  I agree with you. The fact that there is one player makes me wonder how many other players are in the game but not announced. If the regulatory agencies aren't captured, we should expect crypto (at least stablecoins) to get some regulation soon.

ei8htyfi5e 7y ago

Also, to be up front, some of these points I found on a thread early this morning and I copied it to a note pad for later, then went to sleep. When I woke up, the page had refreshed and I have no way of crediting the original author. But I think it's important to share, so I did. If you are the author, or know who wrote parts of this, please tell me and I will credit you/them.

chii 7y ago

> Therefore, if Facebook's Libra is a countries main currency and social network, that country will be owned by Facebook. And if you swap Facebook with the Federal Reserve, the above is already currently true!

arduanika 7y ago
Really? Does the Federal Reserve control the flow of information in those countries? GP's point is, if Libra achieves its vision of a global currency yet remains under Facebook's ultimate control, then a single entity centralizes not only [all the combined power wielded jointly today by the Fed / ECB / IMF / World Bank over a country], but also [its gateway to news and social life, with the power and evidently the willingness to bend all elections to its will].