7 ms·

A Typical Day for PFC Bradley Manning

119 points by MaysonL 16y ago

rsanheim 16y ago
"He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups, sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop" I think this would be the worst for me, along with the checks every 5 minutes.
deleted 16y ago
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steve19 16y ago
That must be hellish. It seems a lot of these restrictions were intended to be for his own good to prevent him from causing himself physical harm. What good are they if they are causing him psychological damage?
- Alex3917 16y ago
  "What good are they if they are causing him psychological damage?" Their goal isn't to just cause psychological damage, it's to cause physical brain damage through controlled sensory deprivation.
  - steve19 16y ago
    I am disappointed your comment is being upvoted. Just because the conditions are terrible, outright and false hyperbole should not be used on the site like HN. We don't need propaganda here. Being in regular contact with people (every 5 minutes), being able to watch TV for hours each day, corresponding via mail and being able to read books means he is not even remotely in the same league as people being tourtoured with real sensory deprivation [2] While the military can do and has done [1] sensory deprivation , this is not it. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." [0] It sounds to me like they are trying to prevent him from committing suicide. But the prevention is probably doing him a lot of damage. --- [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jose_Padilla_at_the_Navy_Consolidated_Brig.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jose_Padilla_at_the_Navy_C... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation Edit: formatting.
    - borism 16y ago
      It all varies by person, doesn't it? We can't really know for sure whether that treatment amounts to sensory deprivation or not in his case. What books did he get? What channels is he allowed to watch? Maybe it's only Fox and Life TV? Let's wait until we hear his story, not some dry desctiption of the procedures.
      - ams6110 16y ago
        The original item stated that he gets local broadcast channels. So, presumably the major networks and maybe one or two independents. No cable.
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      That's why I said controlled sensory deprivation. It's a spectrum. Just because it doesn't involve ketamine and float tanks doesn't mean they aren't trying to destroy his brain. First of all there are no indications that he is or has ever been suicidal, so that explanation is laughable. And how exactly is preventing him from doing any exercise supposed to keep him from committing suicide anyway? Even relatively mild sensory deprivation can cause fairly severe depression, as I make the case for here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=948637 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=948637 And what they are doing to him is way more extreme than what most people with depression are accidentally doing to themselves.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - hugh3 16y ago
        What makes you think there's no indication that he's been is or has ever been suicidal? Why would we know about it, if there had been? Is it not plausible that a kid who was pretty screwed up in the first place, who committed treason on a lark, and who is now facing life in prison for betraying his country, might turn suicidal? The only indication we have one way or the other is that he's on Prevention of Injury watch, which is a pretty good sign that somebody thinks he is.
- pmr_ 16y ago
  This makes me think the most. The restrictions seem a good reason to actually commit suicide or any other form of harm to yourself just to keep yourself occupied or to end the current state a subject is in. So the feedback of the rule would actually be that it causes the thing it was meant to prevent. Are those restrictions common and is there any research that ratifies them?
plinkplonk 16y ago
"The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner." If true, this is terrible.
- Confusion 16y ago
  My initial reaction was the same, but on second thought I think it may not be that bad. I agree that it would initially prevent the subject from concentrating, but he might get used to it in such a way that he can acknowledge the question with a 'yes' without breaking concentration. Some people can work with the radio on, others only when it doesn't contain commercials, others can't work with any music. I can sleep virtually anywhere, while others, in the same room, can't stand a certain buzz, regularly recurring electromechanical noises or other sounds. However, with prolonged exposure, I think anyone would start to be able to work and sleep in environments with intruding noises.
  - mattmanser 16y ago
    It may not be? Yeah, dream on.
  - mwg66 16y ago
    Isn't interrupted sleep (arguably sleep deprivation) a questionable a form of torture?
    - Confusion 16y ago
      They are not waking him every 5 minutes: that only happens during the day. At night he is awakened under some circumstances, but whether that constitutes sleep deprivation depends on how often it happens and there is no report on that.
      - mwg66 16y ago
        But, if for some reason, he doesn't sleep during the night - he is forcibly woken should he fall asleep during the day?
jrockway 16y ago
I don't understand the use of the word "force" and "require", as in "required to respond every five minutes". What if he doesn't? They'll send him to prison where he'll be required to respond to their questions every five minutes? Oh wait. (I understand that in "regular" prisons, there are privileges, like socialization, that can be taken away to coerce you into following the rules. But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules?)
- rms 16y ago
  >But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules? Minor beatings from angry guys with guns.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    As a high-profile US citizen military prisoner in a military prison within the United States, he probably doesn't have to worry about that too much. I'd much rather be guarded by soldiers than by civilian prison guards. If a soldier hits you, he has a commanding officer who is going to jump down his throat. If a civilian prison guard hits you, he has a union who's going to cover up for him.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    At extreme risk of sanctimony, but worth it to me because I follow your comments: Maybe consider whether you want to be this glib about military prison guards. MCB Quantico is presumably staffed by the USMC. As I understand it: (1) People don't join the USMC and then get to choose to work as a brig guard stateside; these are people who volunteered to serve at an extremely difficult time. (2) The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour overseas; the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine doing myself. I might consider giving these people the benefit of the doubt. (I'm anti-war, a liberal dem, but I have a healthy dose of respect for people who volunteer for the armed services.) If you disagree, that's fine, I won't have a temper tantrum, but I thought it was worth saying. Incidentally, there's a Reddit AmA with an MCB Quantico brig guard running right now.
joakin 16y ago
All this feels like 1984... While reading it I got anxious,stressed and wanting to exercise. It has to be horrible that the only hour a day that you can really move the only thing to do is walking. FREE Manning, innocent until proved guilty
- Confusion 16y ago
  The point most people want to make is not that he may be treated in this way if he has been proven to be guilty, but this is exactly what you are doing in the eyes of people that consider the treatment acceptable. The constant calls upon the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra are a huge red herring. If you want to argue the treatment is wrong, you should argue exactly that and not argue against the treatment based on the current circumstances. Effectively, this argument achieves the exact opposite of what you want: it strengthens the other side in their belief that Manning may be treated in this way. This is because of two things: - he's in the military - he's pretty much confessed People feel that 'innocent until proved guilty' is not really an issue because of those two things and arguing against that feeling is a colossal waste of time, when what you actually want is to convince people that Manning shouldn't be treated like he currently is, period.
  - arethuza 16y ago
    While I can't comment on the details of this case, it is perhaps worth noting that lots of people confess to crimes they didn't commit for a variety of reasons including coercion and/or mental illness.
    - yardie 16y ago
      I would also add bragging. People claim to be pimps, drug dealers, and tax cheats for some reason. Then you get the ones that brag about acquaintance rape. People say all types of things for seriously strange reasons.
    - ugh 16y ago
      The grandparent doesn’t express any personal belief about the veracity of Manning’s confession. Her or his last sentence is the important one: “People feel that ‘innocent until proved guilty’ is not really an issue because of those two things (i.e. because Manning confessed and is in the military) and arguing against that feeling (i.e. the feeling of people that Manning is guilty) is a colossal waste of time, when what you actually want is to convince people that Manning shouldn't be treated like he currently is, period.” (Emphasis and annotations in brackets mine.)
mwg66 16y ago
Land of the free.
- maresca 16y ago
  Home of the brave.
  - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
    I'd vote for Manning for President if he ever gets out of jail. The guy obviously has morals, integrity and a spine. I really think he's a hero. The government should be accountable to the people. Think about Iraq/Afghanistan if there were WikiLeaks in 2001 would Bush have been able to get away with all the lies he told to push us into two wars? I really doubt it. The world is safer with WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks ripped off the clock of secrecy and now they have to operate in public as it should be.
    - mwg66 16y ago
      It's worth remembering (I think this has been forgotten) that the original leak Manning is suspected for is the "Collateral Murder" video. That is very much of public interest and a prime example of what whistle blowing is for.
      - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
        Also, if Julian Assange were say a Chinese citizen and this were happening to the Chinese government he'd be cheered on, called a dissident, and given a Nobel Prize.
deleted 16y ago
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MoreMoschops 16y ago
An awful lot of that does sound like psychological torture dressed up to just about make it possible to present some kind of legal argument that it's for other purposes, and the damaging effects on the detainee are an unfortunate by-product.
HNer 16y ago
Id love to be able to hack a solution to injustices like these.
bhickey 16y ago
What's the rationale for prohibiting exercise in his cell? Manning hasn't been convicted, so now isn't the time for punitive measures.
- JanezStupar 16y ago
  Its a subtle form of torture... I have heard/read that to keep oneself sane in a solitary you have to occupy yourself - and not go into internal monologues, because they will drive you mad. So the best form of occupation is exercise - pacing the cell (however small it is), meditation (keeping your mind void), etc... So they are effectively preventing him from clinging to his sanity. Make no mistake - solitary confinement is meant to drive you mad, thats all there is to it.
- iuguy 16y ago
  He's on Prevention of Injury watch in a Supermax prison. I'm not familiar with US rules, but on suicide watch in a high security UK prison you're not usually allowed to exercise. This is partly because there's a risk you may be able to overpower guards, but also because you can injure yourself if you over-exercise. Whatever the reason in Manning's case, it'll be more to do with bureaucratic rules than any particular desire to torture. If they wanted to torture him they'd submit him to the treatment signed off by the Bush administration.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    There's no need to torture him. He doesn't have any information that's of any use.
spindritf 16y ago
There's one thing I don't understand -- why he isn't allowed to exercise. I thought that would actually be required from a soldier.
philwelch 16y ago
Most of this is fairly standard solitary confinement/suicide watch procedures, frankly. There are thousands of prisoners receiving comparable treatment who are not part of some politically trendy Wikileaks controversy. If you find any of this outrageous, don't think Bradley Manning is a special case in the slightest.
- hugh3 16y ago
  Exactly. How many people cared about the plight of people in solitary confinement and suicide watch last week? There are people in prison having a far worse time than Manning. Come to think of it, if I were in prison I'd much rather be in solitary confinement like Manning than in with the general prison population (where my options would presumably be either to join the Aryan Brotherhood or get beaten up every day).
  - philwelch 16y ago
    If by "beaten up" you mean "raped", actually. A lot of people have tried solitary confinement for the reasons you bring up, but more than a couple of days of it and most of them decide it's worth taking the risk in the general population. Solitary confinement is a weird experience.
  - maxawaytoolong 16y ago
    where my options would presumably be either to join the Aryan Brotherhood or get beaten up every day He's in a military prison , not Riker's Island.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      That's exactly the point. There are 14,000 prisoners at Riker's Island, and many of them live in similar or worse conditions than PFC Manning. How do prisons become HN-worthy content just because someone involved with internet drama just happens to be in the prison?
jeffreyrusso 16y ago
Glen Greenwald's salon.com piece on this is also a worthy read; it discusses the irreversible physical harm to the brain these conditions have probably already caused Manning. They also have him on a steady dose of antidepressants... All this makes me sick to hear about.
- Jd 16y ago
  Link: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/index.html http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14...
iuguy 16y ago
I can't help but feel that while the treatment is severe and terrible that this isn't an appropriate post for Hacker News. This type of thing is a shining example of something that belongs on Reddit, where there's greater exposure and it's more on-topic. Is it interesting, yes (to some, although I'm sure there's plenty that could say not on hacker news as it's tied to wikileaks). I would say that while the treatment of him is terrible, it meets the off-topic criteria (crime, politics, TV news). I'm posting this separately to my engagement in the discussion.
- lotusleaf1987 16y ago
  I'm so so so tired of people complaining about what is and what isn't HN relevant. Yes maybe the topic is not technology but isn't this something that effects us (Americans mostly) regardless of whether or not it's HN news? I welcome the news because how else would I have the time to find all these articles on my own? I wouldn't, so I actually appreciate that someone posted it here. If you really don't have interest in the article then just don't click it, move along. It seems like you're putting in more effort complaining than it would take to just skip to the next HN news article.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Yes maybe the topic is not technology but isn't this something that effects us (Americans mostly) regardless of whether or not it's HN news? I don't know. Are you expecting to be put in solitary confinement and suicide watch in a military prison any time soon? Because I sure as hell am not.
    - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
      Just because I don't expect it to happen to me doesn't mean it isn't relevant. The actions of our government are relevant to all. If WikiLeaks were around in 2001 do you think it would have been as easy for Bush to feed us lies to justify going to war in Iraq? I don't. I applaud the actions of WikiLeaks.
  - PostOnce 16y ago
iuguy 16y ago
Is this terrible treatment? Yes. Is it inhumane? Possibly. It's important to bear in mind several factors: * PFC Bradley Manning signed up to all of this. He will have been aware of the treatment he should expect in this situation if he was exposed. * He confessed. Innocent until guilty in a military scenario is different to a civilian scenario. Given that he's confessed guilt, there's little to defend. * This is a military case, not a civilian one. Things are different. You might not agree with the way he's treated but there are specific rules and those rules are in place for a reason.
- danenania 16y ago
  So to restate, he's being held without charges and psychologically tortured, but it's okay because he's in the military and the rules of the military say that's okay. Would you support a military rule that required officers to eat ten newborn babes apiece to be eligible for promotion? Let's say it's a specific rule and it's in place for a reason.
  - iuguy 16y ago
    > So to restate, he's being held without charges and psychologically tortured, but it's okay because he's in the military and the rules of the military say that's okay. That's not what I'm saying. It's not psychological torture against someone who's completely unprepared for it and never signed up for it. It's imprisonment under the terms of a contract he willingly signed up for. He is being charged with breaking that contract in a manner where the rules and consequences are clear. That's the call he had to make, that's the trade-off he had to make and that's something he must've known before he did what he did, otherwise he's taken a massive uncalculated risk without thinking about the potential consequences.
- brl 16y ago
  > He confessed. Last I heard he had not confessed and he is not cooperating with the prosecution. Do you know something different?
  - iuguy 16y ago
jwr 16y ago
While I am in general rather critical of most methods employed by the US in recent years, in this case the situation is quite different. If you sign up for the US military and then as a soldier commit what may very well be seen as an act of treason, you can't really expect great treatment. Mind you, this is very, very different from what goes on in Guantanamo, for which there is no justification.
jey 16y ago
Why isn't this "prevention of injury watch" considered cruel and unusual punishment?
schwit 16y ago
If Manning had given the data to Al-Qaeda would we feel the same way?
scrod 16y ago
Is long-term solitary confinement torture? http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_... The answer: Yes, it is.
RexRollman 16y ago
I am sorry, but having been in the military myself, I cannot feel sympathy for a serviceman who intentionally leaked classified material. And if found guity, he should spend the rest of his life in prison for doing so.

119 points by MaysonL 16y ago

"He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups, sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop" I think this would be the worst for me, along with the checks every 5 minutes.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

steve19 16y ago

That must be hellish. It seems a lot of these restrictions were intended to be for his own good to prevent him from causing himself physical harm. What good are they if they are causing him psychological damage?

Alex3917 16y ago
"What good are they if they are causing him psychological damage?" Their goal isn't to just cause psychological damage, it's to cause physical brain damage through controlled sensory deprivation.
- steve19 16y ago
  I am disappointed your comment is being upvoted. Just because the conditions are terrible, outright and false hyperbole should not be used on the site like HN. We don't need propaganda here. Being in regular contact with people (every 5 minutes), being able to watch TV for hours each day, corresponding via mail and being able to read books means he is not even remotely in the same league as people being tourtoured with real sensory deprivation [2] While the military can do and has done [1] sensory deprivation , this is not it. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." [0] It sounds to me like they are trying to prevent him from committing suicide. But the prevention is probably doing him a lot of damage. --- [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jose_Padilla_at_the_Navy_Consolidated_Brig.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jose_Padilla_at_the_Navy_C... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation Edit: formatting.
  - borism 16y ago
    It all varies by person, doesn't it? We can't really know for sure whether that treatment amounts to sensory deprivation or not in his case. What books did he get? What channels is he allowed to watch? Maybe it's only Fox and Life TV? Let's wait until we hear his story, not some dry desctiption of the procedures.
    - ams6110 16y ago
      The original item stated that he gets local broadcast channels. So, presumably the major networks and maybe one or two independents. No cable.
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    That's why I said controlled sensory deprivation. It's a spectrum. Just because it doesn't involve ketamine and float tanks doesn't mean they aren't trying to destroy his brain. First of all there are no indications that he is or has ever been suicidal, so that explanation is laughable. And how exactly is preventing him from doing any exercise supposed to keep him from committing suicide anyway? Even relatively mild sensory deprivation can cause fairly severe depression, as I make the case for here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=948637 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=948637 And what they are doing to him is way more extreme than what most people with depression are accidentally doing to themselves.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - hugh3 16y ago
      What makes you think there's no indication that he's been is or has ever been suicidal? Why would we know about it, if there had been? Is it not plausible that a kid who was pretty screwed up in the first place, who committed treason on a lark, and who is now facing life in prison for betraying his country, might turn suicidal? The only indication we have one way or the other is that he's on Prevention of Injury watch, which is a pretty good sign that somebody thinks he is.
pmr_ 16y ago
This makes me think the most. The restrictions seem a good reason to actually commit suicide or any other form of harm to yourself just to keep yourself occupied or to end the current state a subject is in. So the feedback of the rule would actually be that it causes the thing it was meant to prevent. Are those restrictions common and is there any research that ratifies them?

plinkplonk 16y ago

"The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner." If true, this is terrible.

Confusion 16y ago
My initial reaction was the same, but on second thought I think it may not be that bad. I agree that it would initially prevent the subject from concentrating, but he might get used to it in such a way that he can acknowledge the question with a 'yes' without breaking concentration. Some people can work with the radio on, others only when it doesn't contain commercials, others can't work with any music. I can sleep virtually anywhere, while others, in the same room, can't stand a certain buzz, regularly recurring electromechanical noises or other sounds. However, with prolonged exposure, I think anyone would start to be able to work and sleep in environments with intruding noises.
- mattmanser 16y ago
  It may not be? Yeah, dream on.
- mwg66 16y ago
  Isn't interrupted sleep (arguably sleep deprivation) a questionable a form of torture?
  - Confusion 16y ago
    They are not waking him every 5 minutes: that only happens during the day. At night he is awakened under some circumstances, but whether that constitutes sleep deprivation depends on how often it happens and there is no report on that.
    - mwg66 16y ago
      But, if for some reason, he doesn't sleep during the night - he is forcibly woken should he fall asleep during the day?

jrockway 16y ago

I don't understand the use of the word "force" and "require", as in "required to respond every five minutes". What if he doesn't? They'll send him to prison where he'll be required to respond to their questions every five minutes? Oh wait. (I understand that in "regular" prisons, there are privileges, like socialization, that can be taken away to coerce you into following the rules. But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules?)

rms 16y ago
>But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules? Minor beatings from angry guys with guns.
- hugh3 16y ago
  As a high-profile US citizen military prisoner in a military prison within the United States, he probably doesn't have to worry about that too much. I'd much rather be guarded by soldiers than by civilian prison guards. If a soldier hits you, he has a commanding officer who is going to jump down his throat. If a civilian prison guard hits you, he has a union who's going to cover up for him.
- tptacek 16y ago
  At extreme risk of sanctimony, but worth it to me because I follow your comments: Maybe consider whether you want to be this glib about military prison guards. MCB Quantico is presumably staffed by the USMC. As I understand it: (1) People don't join the USMC and then get to choose to work as a brig guard stateside; these are people who volunteered to serve at an extremely difficult time. (2) The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour overseas; the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine doing myself. I might consider giving these people the benefit of the doubt. (I'm anti-war, a liberal dem, but I have a healthy dose of respect for people who volunteer for the armed services.) If you disagree, that's fine, I won't have a temper tantrum, but I thought it was worth saying. Incidentally, there's a Reddit AmA with an MCB Quantico brig guard running right now.

joakin 16y ago

All this feels like 1984... While reading it I got anxious,stressed and wanting to exercise. It has to be horrible that the only hour a day that you can really move the only thing to do is walking. FREE Manning, innocent until proved guilty

Confusion 16y ago
The point most people want to make is not that he may be treated in this way if he has been proven to be guilty, but this is exactly what you are doing in the eyes of people that consider the treatment acceptable. The constant calls upon the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra are a huge red herring. If you want to argue the treatment is wrong, you should argue exactly that and not argue against the treatment based on the current circumstances. Effectively, this argument achieves the exact opposite of what you want: it strengthens the other side in their belief that Manning may be treated in this way. This is because of two things: - he's in the military - he's pretty much confessed People feel that 'innocent until proved guilty' is not really an issue because of those two things and arguing against that feeling is a colossal waste of time, when what you actually want is to convince people that Manning shouldn't be treated like he currently is, period.
- arethuza 16y ago
  While I can't comment on the details of this case, it is perhaps worth noting that lots of people confess to crimes they didn't commit for a variety of reasons including coercion and/or mental illness.
  - yardie 16y ago
    I would also add bragging. People claim to be pimps, drug dealers, and tax cheats for some reason. Then you get the ones that brag about acquaintance rape. People say all types of things for seriously strange reasons.
  - ugh 16y ago
    The grandparent doesn’t express any personal belief about the veracity of Manning’s confession. Her or his last sentence is the important one: “People feel that ‘innocent until proved guilty’ is not really an issue because of those two things (i.e. because Manning confessed and is in the military) and arguing against that feeling (i.e. the feeling of people that Manning is guilty) is a colossal waste of time, when what you actually want is to convince people that Manning shouldn't be treated like he currently is, period.” (Emphasis and annotations in brackets mine.)

mwg66 16y ago

Land of the free.

maresca 16y ago
Home of the brave.
- lotusleaf1987 16y ago
  I'd vote for Manning for President if he ever gets out of jail. The guy obviously has morals, integrity and a spine. I really think he's a hero. The government should be accountable to the people. Think about Iraq/Afghanistan if there were WikiLeaks in 2001 would Bush have been able to get away with all the lies he told to push us into two wars? I really doubt it. The world is safer with WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks ripped off the clock of secrecy and now they have to operate in public as it should be.
  - mwg66 16y ago
    It's worth remembering (I think this has been forgotten) that the original leak Manning is suspected for is the "Collateral Murder" video. That is very much of public interest and a prime example of what whistle blowing is for.
    - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
      Also, if Julian Assange were say a Chinese citizen and this were happening to the Chinese government he'd be cheered on, called a dissident, and given a Nobel Prize.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

MoreMoschops 16y ago

An awful lot of that does sound like psychological torture dressed up to just about make it possible to present some kind of legal argument that it's for other purposes, and the damaging effects on the detainee are an unfortunate by-product.

HNer 16y ago

Id love to be able to hack a solution to injustices like these.

bhickey 16y ago

What's the rationale for prohibiting exercise in his cell? Manning hasn't been convicted, so now isn't the time for punitive measures.

JanezStupar 16y ago
Its a subtle form of torture... I have heard/read that to keep oneself sane in a solitary you have to occupy yourself - and not go into internal monologues, because they will drive you mad. So the best form of occupation is exercise - pacing the cell (however small it is), meditation (keeping your mind void), etc... So they are effectively preventing him from clinging to his sanity. Make no mistake - solitary confinement is meant to drive you mad, thats all there is to it.
iuguy 16y ago
He's on Prevention of Injury watch in a Supermax prison. I'm not familiar with US rules, but on suicide watch in a high security UK prison you're not usually allowed to exercise. This is partly because there's a risk you may be able to overpower guards, but also because you can injure yourself if you over-exercise. Whatever the reason in Manning's case, it'll be more to do with bureaucratic rules than any particular desire to torture. If they wanted to torture him they'd submit him to the treatment signed off by the Bush administration.
- hugh3 16y ago
  There's no need to torture him. He doesn't have any information that's of any use.

spindritf 16y ago

There's one thing I don't understand -- why he isn't allowed to exercise. I thought that would actually be required from a soldier.

philwelch 16y ago

Most of this is fairly standard solitary confinement/suicide watch procedures, frankly. There are thousands of prisoners receiving comparable treatment who are not part of some politically trendy Wikileaks controversy. If you find any of this outrageous, don't think Bradley Manning is a special case in the slightest.

hugh3 16y ago
Exactly. How many people cared about the plight of people in solitary confinement and suicide watch last week? There are people in prison having a far worse time than Manning. Come to think of it, if I were in prison I'd much rather be in solitary confinement like Manning than in with the general prison population (where my options would presumably be either to join the Aryan Brotherhood or get beaten up every day).
- philwelch 16y ago
  If by "beaten up" you mean "raped", actually. A lot of people have tried solitary confinement for the reasons you bring up, but more than a couple of days of it and most of them decide it's worth taking the risk in the general population. Solitary confinement is a weird experience.
- maxawaytoolong 16y ago
  where my options would presumably be either to join the Aryan Brotherhood or get beaten up every day He's in a military prison , not Riker's Island.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    That's exactly the point. There are 14,000 prisoners at Riker's Island, and many of them live in similar or worse conditions than PFC Manning. How do prisons become HN-worthy content just because someone involved with internet drama just happens to be in the prison?

jeffreyrusso 16y ago

Glen Greenwald's salon.com piece on this is also a worthy read; it discusses the irreversible physical harm to the brain these conditions have probably already caused Manning. They also have him on a steady dose of antidepressants... All this makes me sick to hear about.

Jd 16y ago
Link: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/index.html http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14...

iuguy 16y ago

I can't help but feel that while the treatment is severe and terrible that this isn't an appropriate post for Hacker News. This type of thing is a shining example of something that belongs on Reddit, where there's greater exposure and it's more on-topic. Is it interesting, yes (to some, although I'm sure there's plenty that could say not on hacker news as it's tied to wikileaks). I would say that while the treatment of him is terrible, it meets the off-topic criteria (crime, politics, TV news). I'm posting this separately to my engagement in the discussion.

lotusleaf1987 16y ago
I'm so so so tired of people complaining about what is and what isn't HN relevant. Yes maybe the topic is not technology but isn't this something that effects us (Americans mostly) regardless of whether or not it's HN news? I welcome the news because how else would I have the time to find all these articles on my own? I wouldn't, so I actually appreciate that someone posted it here. If you really don't have interest in the article then just don't click it, move along. It seems like you're putting in more effort complaining than it would take to just skip to the next HN news article.
- hugh3 16y ago
  Yes maybe the topic is not technology but isn't this something that effects us (Americans mostly) regardless of whether or not it's HN news? I don't know. Are you expecting to be put in solitary confinement and suicide watch in a military prison any time soon? Because I sure as hell am not.
  - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
    Just because I don't expect it to happen to me doesn't mean it isn't relevant. The actions of our government are relevant to all. If WikiLeaks were around in 2001 do you think it would have been as easy for Bush to feed us lies to justify going to war in Iraq? I don't. I applaud the actions of WikiLeaks.
- PostOnce 16y ago

iuguy 16y ago

Is this terrible treatment? Yes. Is it inhumane? Possibly. It's important to bear in mind several factors: * PFC Bradley Manning signed up to all of this. He will have been aware of the treatment he should expect in this situation if he was exposed. * He confessed. Innocent until guilty in a military scenario is different to a civilian scenario. Given that he's confessed guilt, there's little to defend. * This is a military case, not a civilian one. Things are different. You might not agree with the way he's treated but there are specific rules and those rules are in place for a reason.

danenania 16y ago
So to restate, he's being held without charges and psychologically tortured, but it's okay because he's in the military and the rules of the military say that's okay. Would you support a military rule that required officers to eat ten newborn babes apiece to be eligible for promotion? Let's say it's a specific rule and it's in place for a reason.
- iuguy 16y ago
  > So to restate, he's being held without charges and psychologically tortured, but it's okay because he's in the military and the rules of the military say that's okay. That's not what I'm saying. It's not psychological torture against someone who's completely unprepared for it and never signed up for it. It's imprisonment under the terms of a contract he willingly signed up for. He is being charged with breaking that contract in a manner where the rules and consequences are clear. That's the call he had to make, that's the trade-off he had to make and that's something he must've known before he did what he did, otherwise he's taken a massive uncalculated risk without thinking about the potential consequences.
brl 16y ago
> He confessed. Last I heard he had not confessed and he is not cooperating with the prosecution. Do you know something different?
- iuguy 16y ago

jwr 16y ago

While I am in general rather critical of most methods employed by the US in recent years, in this case the situation is quite different. If you sign up for the US military and then as a soldier commit what may very well be seen as an act of treason, you can't really expect great treatment. Mind you, this is very, very different from what goes on in Guantanamo, for which there is no justification.

jey 16y ago

Why isn't this "prevention of injury watch" considered cruel and unusual punishment?

schwit 16y ago

If Manning had given the data to Al-Qaeda would we feel the same way?

scrod 16y ago

Is long-term solitary confinement torture? http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_... The answer: Yes, it is.

RexRollman 16y ago

I am sorry, but having been in the military myself, I cannot feel sympathy for a serviceman who intentionally leaked classified material. And if found guity, he should spend the rest of his life in prison for doing so.