8 ms·

Facebook will make the money now

82 points by samsgro 7y ago

lostmymind66 7y ago
All of these cryptocurrency experiments eventually point out the reason centralized banks were invented in the first place. Usually through major thefts and loss of assets.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > All of these cryptocurrency experiments eventually point out the reason centralized banks were invented in the first place. Usually through major thefts and loss of assets. Yeah. Central banks are actually a kind of technology, which I don't think a lot of people recognize. But even with software and silicon technology, lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it, so they can build something "new." It's seems even harder to get such people to recognize value of technologies that aren't made from computers.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    It's so much more complex than "young naive devs want to throw out the manual". Extremely valid criticisms towards central banking have existed since before central banks even existed. Just ask my man Thomas Jefferson what he thinks about central banks.
    - pavel_lishin 7y ago
      > Just ask my man Thomas Jefferson what he thinks about central banks. Appeal to authority.
      - trentmb 7y ago
        No- they just told you to read Jeffersons musings on the topic of central banks.
        lisper 7y ago
        Yes, but why Jefferson? Why not Arglebargle? Or me? I have musings on the topic of central banks, would you like to hear them?
        tomjakubowski 7y ago
        It seems like OP just thinks Jefferson has written some "extremely valid criticism" of central banking, from before the US had the system. Who knows? I think central banking is probably fine and cryptocurrencies are stupid and I don't see where the appeal to authority is.
        trentmb 7y ago
        > Yes, but why Jefferson Because they thought Jeffersons thoughts on the matter were relevant. > Why not Arglebargle? Because I know what that word means. > Or me? Because "lisper central banks" doesn't produce any meaningful results in a search engine. > I have musings on the topic of central banks, would you like to hear them? Sure.
        lisper 7y ago
        OK: there are two fundamental problems that have to be solved in any monetary system: how to keep the records, and how to control the money supply. With regards to the latter, there are only two options: 1. Let the money supply be controlled by the laws of physics, e.g. use a scarce material as money. 2. Let the money supply be controlled by some policy. The second option subdivides into two further sub-options: 2a. Let the free market produce money competitively like any other product. 2b. Let the government (or a private entity acting on behalf of the government) do it as an artificial monopoly. That last option is a central bank. Those are all the possibilities. All of them have been tried at one time or another in human history. Flawed as it may be, the one that has produced objectively the best results in terms of economic stability and prosperity has been 2b. And there isn't really much more that can be said about it. Oh, almost forgot: > > Arglebargle? > Because I know what that word means. Arglebargle is the name of an obscure author who wrote on all manner of topics, but whose work has been largely forgotten.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - dbt00 7y ago
        This is not Appeal to Authority fallacy. He's simply citing a historically accessible example of similar criticism that here is being dismissed as "lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it".
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        Sorry, try again.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      The existence of central banking criticism doesn't justify throwing out the financial manual on what makes a good payment system. The number of conversations I've had with bitcoin evangelists where they argue about the lack of refunds, chargebacks, or dispute handling being a feature, not a bug, is not solving problems with central banking.
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        Payment networks which supply such functionality can be built on top of crypto as secondary escrow layers. This practice is already common in decentralized marketplaces.
      - codyb 7y ago
        Aren’t those issues primarily handled by credit lenders like Visa and Mastercard? I do find it funny how just by strength of community alone the most successful cryptocurrency may be the very most centralized one. I have a feeling the centralization will allow it to have decent transaction speeds and volume which seems to be BTCs biggest flaw (addressed by the lightning network? I’ve kind of stopped following) since all the other nodes (ebay, 26 other companies) can afford the bandwidth. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays with regulators if it takes off in any way.
        bduerst 7y ago
        That was just one example. Transaction rates are another. The idea that we need to throw out the manual and then repeat all the same mistakes that the manual helped prevent, because of a technology fallacy, is a problem.
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      > It's so much more complex than "young naive devs want to throw out the manual". Extremely valid criticisms towards central banking have existed since before central banks even existed. Isn't a lot of Bitcoin/cryptocurrency ideology basically "Wasn't the gold standard great? Lets go back to something like that."? The gold standard may be have some positive attributes, but it also had problems that lead to its abandonment, and any new system should at least try to intelligently respond to those problems that central banking solves than to deny their existence or impact.
      - faeww 7y ago
        Does central banking solve them though. The fact that negative interest rates exist suggests otherwise.
  - NTDF9 7y ago
    > Yeah. Central banks are actually a kind of technology, which I don't think a lot of people recognize. They are. And a very unbalanced one at that which relies on constant credit growth (which is insane). Not defending cryptos but I gotta say that we need better monetary systems which reward work and not investment, and does not rely on constant money printed inflation.
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    But even with software and silicon technology, lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it Especially with. The number of times young programmers "invent" something which was done 10 to 30 years ago is epidemic.
  - 0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
    >lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it There's enough wrong with the current financial system to make it worth trying new things even if they don't work out. I think what bugs us is that Facebook is marketing this already. Cryptocurrency is definitely not something I want to replace the current financial system though.
    - bad_user 7y ago
      When speaking of finances, a trying things out mentality and failure can lead to a lot of value being wiped over night. When the bubble bursts, if enough value disappears, we are then faced with an economic recession. Not saying that we shouldn't try things out, but many people right now are conned to invest in Bitcoin alternatives that are the new ponzi schemes.
    - lostmymind66 7y ago
      "There's enough wrong with the current financial system to make it worth trying new things even if they don't work out" Is it really though when 'not working out' means that someone loses their entire life savings?
      - 0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
        This is why I said I don't want to replace the current system with cryptocurrency. Retail investors weren't prepared to handle the technical requirements. Part of that is on regulators, the other is on naive investors, another part on conmen. At some point you have to have accountability for the result of putting your entire life savings into a new, untested technology.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  People incorrectly assume their money can't be stolen from a bank via hacking or wire fraud. The only thing you get from having your money in a bank account is government-mandated insurance, that covers you only up to a point. I think as crypto ecosystem matures, similar services will be offered there too.
  - CobrastanJorji 7y ago
    That limit is $250,000 per bank. For 90% of Americans, government insurance is complete protection. If you consider only those Americans with at least some savings, 90% of Americans could be entirely protected by dividing their money into two banks.
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      What kind of events this insurance covers? My understanding is that it does not protect from wire fraud. It is there to cover bank bankruptcy, which is impossible as per se with a cryptowallet in the first place. Am I correct?
      - basch 7y ago
        If an exchange lent out more than it had on its books, you could have a run on an exchange. Insurance would guarantee your money back if the exchange, your custodian, collapsed.
        lostmsu 7y ago
        You don't have to store your money in an exchange, so the risk is very low at any given point of time. Currently people pay for the prolonged version of that risk by receiving a benefit of convenience. But this will stop as soon as somebody creates an equally convenient cryptowallet infrastructure.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    > The only thing you get from having your money in a bank account is government-mandated insurance, that covers you only up to a point. That's like saying that the only thing you get from not being homeless is a roof above your head. Deposit insurance shores up trust in the financial system as a whole, and prevents runs on the bank from desperate depositors if the bank has a bad quarter. Desperate people riot, loot, and create coups. There are trillions in $ value in having a stable economy with a population that has peace of mind.
velcrovan 7y ago
“Libra”? Should have named it Cancer
- itsaidpens 7y ago
  Bravo.
- ilaksh 7y ago
  https://github.com/libra/libra/issues/41 https://github.com/libra/libra/issues/41
GrumpyNl 7y ago
I bet you have to buy them with good old dollars.
momentmaker 7y ago
Libra is right next to Gemini in astrology and guess who knows Gemini.com?
stillbourne 7y ago
Hey, anyone remember the last time companies printed their own money? Man, the return of company scrip. I don't see at all how this can turn out bad.
- creaghpatr 7y ago
  Yeah, if I remember correctly, a company called Paddy's Pub tried it a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxxE1AcUSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxxE1AcUSM
  - smilebot 7y ago
    Yes. Perfect execution of a Self-Sustaining Economy.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    Paddy's Dollars had numerous problems, biggest of which was seigniorage. Because of the expensive print colors used on on the bills (then justified as an 'old poor' move), it cost more to issue Paddy's $ than what the tokens themselves were worth.
- swebs 7y ago
  And this time it's stored digitally on their servers, so they can just steal it whenever you violate some vague ToS clause.
  - unixhero 7y ago
    Like Apple and Google's behaviour? Ah I see.
- smsm42 7y ago
  Tons of companies print their own money. It's just called "miles", "points", "coupons", "credits", etc. - but it is a medium of exchange that can be used to buy stuff at this company, i.e. money. Of course, airline workers would never agree to be paid entirely in miles, but probably would not mind getting their hands on some more of them.
smsm42 7y ago
There's a bunch of problems in current banking system, and unfriendly user interfaces, obscure rules with many gotchas and transaction times are some of them. However, to think that I will trust Facebook more with my money than I trust my bank is, on the current stage, I think plain insane. Also, does using Facebook currency for paying your bills means if you get in trouble with Facebook (which anybody now could by posting a wrong joke, having wrong political ideas or upsetting wrong people) you can not pay them anymore? Would Facebook control the transaction processing (i.e. via Messenger or otherwise)? If yes, then definitely not with a ten foot pole.
- mirekrusin 7y ago
  There is something better than your bank. My bank sir sure. I’ve been using Revolut to transfer some money between borders and I did save couple of £k thanks to it. It’s really not difficult to be cheaper than “your bank”.
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  Honestly, I'm pretty confident that the sec teams at Facebook are better staffed and more skilled than at my bank.
  - irq 7y ago
    It's not so much the security teams as it is the society-destroying beliefs of Facebook's upper management. Doesn't matter how good your security team is when they take marching orders from people who aren't aligned with improving society's health.
    - skybrian 7y ago
      And why should we trust random Internet commenters to know anything about the beliefs of Facebook managers?
      - darkcha0s 7y ago
        No one asks or expects that of you. The amount of negative press FB has managed to generate over the last few years, however, is more than enough to question the beliefs of FB managers.
elwell 7y ago
(is-coincidence? (= (alpha->num-sum "Libra") 42 answers/life answers/universe answers/everything))
- thestartup 7y ago
  1) Insufficient sample size (1) 2) Insufficient improbability of occurrence
TACIXAT 7y ago
Alright, this is just a prepaid access system built on top of crypto. I strongly believe the need for a prepaid access system to lower transaction fees for moving money digitally, but the companies backing this are some of the most vile. This consortium are never going to do anything in the users' interest. If they're making bank on interest from deposits, that's never going to flow back. As well, all these companies (sellers of prepaid access) are going to need to be registered as Money Service Businesses (MSB) in the US. That puts them under all the AML/KYC laws. So we don't even get our libertarian wet dream of money without the red tape. We'll see what their privacy protections look like. I want this technology to exist. I would rather pay 5 cents per news article I read than being prompted for a 10 dollar per month subscription. However, I want this to fail miserably due an extreme lack of faith in the companies behind it. All these companies will fight for regulation that cements their position and prevents others from entering the market.

82 points by samsgro 7y ago

All of these cryptocurrency experiments eventually point out the reason centralized banks were invented in the first place. Usually through major thefts and loss of assets.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> All of these cryptocurrency experiments eventually point out the reason centralized banks were invented in the first place. Usually through major thefts and loss of assets. Yeah. Central banks are actually a kind of technology, which I don't think a lot of people recognize. But even with software and silicon technology, lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it, so they can build something "new." It's seems even harder to get such people to recognize value of technologies that aren't made from computers.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  It's so much more complex than "young naive devs want to throw out the manual". Extremely valid criticisms towards central banking have existed since before central banks even existed. Just ask my man Thomas Jefferson what he thinks about central banks.
  - pavel_lishin 7y ago
    > Just ask my man Thomas Jefferson what he thinks about central banks. Appeal to authority.
    - trentmb 7y ago
      No- they just told you to read Jeffersons musings on the topic of central banks.
      - lisper 7y ago
        Yes, but why Jefferson? Why not Arglebargle? Or me? I have musings on the topic of central banks, would you like to hear them?
        tomjakubowski 7y ago
        It seems like OP just thinks Jefferson has written some "extremely valid criticism" of central banking, from before the US had the system. Who knows? I think central banking is probably fine and cryptocurrencies are stupid and I don't see where the appeal to authority is.
        trentmb 7y ago
        > Yes, but why Jefferson Because they thought Jeffersons thoughts on the matter were relevant. > Why not Arglebargle? Because I know what that word means. > Or me? Because "lisper central banks" doesn't produce any meaningful results in a search engine. > I have musings on the topic of central banks, would you like to hear them? Sure.
        lisper 7y ago
        OK: there are two fundamental problems that have to be solved in any monetary system: how to keep the records, and how to control the money supply. With regards to the latter, there are only two options: 1. Let the money supply be controlled by the laws of physics, e.g. use a scarce material as money. 2. Let the money supply be controlled by some policy. The second option subdivides into two further sub-options: 2a. Let the free market produce money competitively like any other product. 2b. Let the government (or a private entity acting on behalf of the government) do it as an artificial monopoly. That last option is a central bank. Those are all the possibilities. All of them have been tried at one time or another in human history. Flawed as it may be, the one that has produced objectively the best results in terms of economic stability and prosperity has been 2b. And there isn't really much more that can be said about it. Oh, almost forgot: > > Arglebargle? > Because I know what that word means. Arglebargle is the name of an obscure author who wrote on all manner of topics, but whose work has been largely forgotten.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dbt00 7y ago
      This is not Appeal to Authority fallacy. He's simply citing a historically accessible example of similar criticism that here is being dismissed as "lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it".
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      Sorry, try again.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    The existence of central banking criticism doesn't justify throwing out the financial manual on what makes a good payment system. The number of conversations I've had with bitcoin evangelists where they argue about the lack of refunds, chargebacks, or dispute handling being a feature, not a bug, is not solving problems with central banking.
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      Payment networks which supply such functionality can be built on top of crypto as secondary escrow layers. This practice is already common in decentralized marketplaces.
    - codyb 7y ago
      Aren’t those issues primarily handled by credit lenders like Visa and Mastercard? I do find it funny how just by strength of community alone the most successful cryptocurrency may be the very most centralized one. I have a feeling the centralization will allow it to have decent transaction speeds and volume which seems to be BTCs biggest flaw (addressed by the lightning network? I’ve kind of stopped following) since all the other nodes (ebay, 26 other companies) can afford the bandwidth. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays with regulators if it takes off in any way.
      - bduerst 7y ago
        That was just one example. Transaction rates are another. The idea that we need to throw out the manual and then repeat all the same mistakes that the manual helped prevent, because of a technology fallacy, is a problem.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > It's so much more complex than "young naive devs want to throw out the manual". Extremely valid criticisms towards central banking have existed since before central banks even existed. Isn't a lot of Bitcoin/cryptocurrency ideology basically "Wasn't the gold standard great? Lets go back to something like that."? The gold standard may be have some positive attributes, but it also had problems that lead to its abandonment, and any new system should at least try to intelligently respond to those problems that central banking solves than to deny their existence or impact.
    - faeww 7y ago
      Does central banking solve them though. The fact that negative interest rates exist suggests otherwise.
- NTDF9 7y ago
  > Yeah. Central banks are actually a kind of technology, which I don't think a lot of people recognize. They are. And a very unbalanced one at that which relies on constant credit growth (which is insane). Not defending cryptos but I gotta say that we need better monetary systems which reward work and not investment, and does not rely on constant money printed inflation.
- stcredzero 7y ago
  But even with software and silicon technology, lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it Especially with. The number of times young programmers "invent" something which was done 10 to 30 years ago is epidemic.
- 0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
  >lots of people are hasty to throw out the old without really understanding it There's enough wrong with the current financial system to make it worth trying new things even if they don't work out. I think what bugs us is that Facebook is marketing this already. Cryptocurrency is definitely not something I want to replace the current financial system though.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    When speaking of finances, a trying things out mentality and failure can lead to a lot of value being wiped over night. When the bubble bursts, if enough value disappears, we are then faced with an economic recession. Not saying that we shouldn't try things out, but many people right now are conned to invest in Bitcoin alternatives that are the new ponzi schemes.
  - lostmymind66 7y ago
    "There's enough wrong with the current financial system to make it worth trying new things even if they don't work out" Is it really though when 'not working out' means that someone loses their entire life savings?
    - 0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
      This is why I said I don't want to replace the current system with cryptocurrency. Retail investors weren't prepared to handle the technical requirements. Part of that is on regulators, the other is on naive investors, another part on conmen. At some point you have to have accountability for the result of putting your entire life savings into a new, untested technology.
lostmsu 7y ago
People incorrectly assume their money can't be stolen from a bank via hacking or wire fraud. The only thing you get from having your money in a bank account is government-mandated insurance, that covers you only up to a point. I think as crypto ecosystem matures, similar services will be offered there too.
- CobrastanJorji 7y ago
  That limit is $250,000 per bank. For 90% of Americans, government insurance is complete protection. If you consider only those Americans with at least some savings, 90% of Americans could be entirely protected by dividing their money into two banks.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    What kind of events this insurance covers? My understanding is that it does not protect from wire fraud. It is there to cover bank bankruptcy, which is impossible as per se with a cryptowallet in the first place. Am I correct?
    - basch 7y ago
      If an exchange lent out more than it had on its books, you could have a run on an exchange. Insurance would guarantee your money back if the exchange, your custodian, collapsed.
      - lostmsu 7y ago
        You don't have to store your money in an exchange, so the risk is very low at any given point of time. Currently people pay for the prolonged version of that risk by receiving a benefit of convenience. But this will stop as soon as somebody creates an equally convenient cryptowallet infrastructure.
- rchaud 7y ago
  > The only thing you get from having your money in a bank account is government-mandated insurance, that covers you only up to a point. That's like saying that the only thing you get from not being homeless is a roof above your head. Deposit insurance shores up trust in the financial system as a whole, and prevents runs on the bank from desperate depositors if the bank has a bad quarter. Desperate people riot, loot, and create coups. There are trillions in $ value in having a stable economy with a population that has peace of mind.

velcrovan 7y ago

“Libra”? Should have named it Cancer

itsaidpens 7y ago
Bravo.
ilaksh 7y ago
https://github.com/libra/libra/issues/41 https://github.com/libra/libra/issues/41

GrumpyNl 7y ago

I bet you have to buy them with good old dollars.

momentmaker 7y ago

Libra is right next to Gemini in astrology and guess who knows Gemini.com?

stillbourne 7y ago

Hey, anyone remember the last time companies printed their own money? Man, the return of company scrip. I don't see at all how this can turn out bad.

creaghpatr 7y ago
Yeah, if I remember correctly, a company called Paddy's Pub tried it a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxxE1AcUSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxxE1AcUSM
- smilebot 7y ago
  Yes. Perfect execution of a Self-Sustaining Economy.
- rchaud 7y ago
  Paddy's Dollars had numerous problems, biggest of which was seigniorage. Because of the expensive print colors used on on the bills (then justified as an 'old poor' move), it cost more to issue Paddy's $ than what the tokens themselves were worth.
swebs 7y ago
And this time it's stored digitally on their servers, so they can just steal it whenever you violate some vague ToS clause.
- unixhero 7y ago
  Like Apple and Google's behaviour? Ah I see.
smsm42 7y ago
Tons of companies print their own money. It's just called "miles", "points", "coupons", "credits", etc. - but it is a medium of exchange that can be used to buy stuff at this company, i.e. money. Of course, airline workers would never agree to be paid entirely in miles, but probably would not mind getting their hands on some more of them.

smsm42 7y ago

There's a bunch of problems in current banking system, and unfriendly user interfaces, obscure rules with many gotchas and transaction times are some of them. However, to think that I will trust Facebook more with my money than I trust my bank is, on the current stage, I think plain insane. Also, does using Facebook currency for paying your bills means if you get in trouble with Facebook (which anybody now could by posting a wrong joke, having wrong political ideas or upsetting wrong people) you can not pay them anymore? Would Facebook control the transaction processing (i.e. via Messenger or otherwise)? If yes, then definitely not with a ten foot pole.

mirekrusin 7y ago
There is something better than your bank. My bank sir sure. I’ve been using Revolut to transfer some money between borders and I did save couple of £k thanks to it. It’s really not difficult to be cheaper than “your bank”.
UncleMeat 7y ago
Honestly, I'm pretty confident that the sec teams at Facebook are better staffed and more skilled than at my bank.
- irq 7y ago
  It's not so much the security teams as it is the society-destroying beliefs of Facebook's upper management. Doesn't matter how good your security team is when they take marching orders from people who aren't aligned with improving society's health.
  - skybrian 7y ago
    And why should we trust random Internet commenters to know anything about the beliefs of Facebook managers?
    - darkcha0s 7y ago
      No one asks or expects that of you. The amount of negative press FB has managed to generate over the last few years, however, is more than enough to question the beliefs of FB managers.

elwell 7y ago

(is-coincidence? (= (alpha->num-sum "Libra") 42 answers/life answers/universe answers/everything))

thestartup 7y ago
1) Insufficient sample size (1) 2) Insufficient improbability of occurrence

TACIXAT 7y ago

Alright, this is just a prepaid access system built on top of crypto. I strongly believe the need for a prepaid access system to lower transaction fees for moving money digitally, but the companies backing this are some of the most vile. This consortium are never going to do anything in the users' interest. If they're making bank on interest from deposits, that's never going to flow back. As well, all these companies (sellers of prepaid access) are going to need to be registered as Money Service Businesses (MSB) in the US. That puts them under all the AML/KYC laws. So we don't even get our libertarian wet dream of money without the red tape. We'll see what their privacy protections look like. I want this technology to exist. I would rather pay 5 cents per news article I read than being prompted for a 10 dollar per month subscription. However, I want this to fail miserably due an extreme lack of faith in the companies behind it. All these companies will fight for regulation that cements their position and prevents others from entering the market.