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I have another point of view here - there's power in overcoming adversity. Nearly every movie produced tells you that. But your average American doesn't face re

I have another point of view here - there's power in overcoming adversity. Nearly every movie produced tells you that. But your average American doesn't face real adversity anymore. We are extremely comfortable. Extremely safe. But there's something inside us that needs this adversity, it needs to triumph, to overcome challenges. This is why we run marathons, punish ourselves in the gym, climb mountains. Some of us, at least. Most of us don't. So, we make up these stories in our minds. These fake enemies, these challenges-in-perception-only. If we can convince our social circles that these adversities are real (even absent the reality of ever actually experiencing them), well, we've put ourselves in a better place. We're victims. We're fighters. We're warriors! That's a bit reductionist and dramatic, but when you cut through the bullshit, this is happening every single day around us. Nobody wants to admit how easy their life is, how very rare actual, significant adversities are. It's part of human nature. For the time being, at least.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the daily grind and all the little things, taking care of kids - without falling down (because the cost could be catastrophe) is actually 'facing adversity'.
- DisruptiveDave 7y ago
  Absolutely agree. I think everyone understands the relativity of perception when discussing "how hard things are" but that doesn't mean they put it into daily practice. It's very easy to get caught in your bubble.
- GavinMcG 7y ago
  Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve, I would argue is actual adversity.
    - krustyburger 7y ago
      If one is convinced that their lot in life is dour, there is often no specific change or improvement that would change that outlook. Objectively, almost all of us in the Western world have it very good compared with the vast majority of human beings who have lived on this planet. This is true even if we work in menial jobs or have less than glamorous lifestyles.
    - icelancer 7y ago
      >> that are never likely to improve In the United States, your effort towards this goal have an insanely high correlation with actually making it happen. Perhaps the best in any country in the world, in fact.
      - thekelvinliu 7y ago
        "the american dream"
        HNLurker2 7y ago
        Better than Christian country with cutthroat competition (Occidental countries are better)
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
        Have any data to actually back it up? Such as real number of people who made an effort and failed? And how they failed, and to where? And how well they were initially off?
    - GavinMcG 7y ago
- DisruptiveDave 7y ago
  This point also confirms my relativity of perception thoughts. Yes, compared to me, the bottom 50% certainly has more adversity. But why stop there? The bottom 50% in America is likely the top 20% somewhere else (I'm making all of this up, of course). Then the bottom 50% of that 20% is likely the top 1% somewhere else. And on and on it goes. I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective at altering daily behavior and mindset here, but it's important to recognize nonetheless.
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    "I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective " But this is what is implied by the opening statement 'The Average American' etc. etc. , no? The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. Imagine middle aged parents without spectacular health care coverage, someone gets a cavity and needs a root canal. That's $1000 - and actually beyond the 'average Americans' ability to pay for out of hand. A cavity can be little economic emergency. It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach, or no piano lessons for the kids, or worse, having to put it on the Credit Card, pay terrible rates etc.. And 'cousin Joe' was pulled over for DUI. He'll lose his job if he doesn't make bail, he needs you to co-sign for him. Now you have to make sure he shows up for court. Parents are inching older, have some income but likely need to go into a home, which will be exceedingly expensive. There are umpteen such challenges is 'most people's lives'. So I agree with the sentiment that normal, employed middle class families wherein there's stability and gainful employment, low crime etc. - yes, it's effete, and not much adversity there. There is a class of Americans for whom life doesn't have a lot of adversity, fully agree. But it's not 'most'.
    - sigstoat 7y ago
      > The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. > ... > It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach were you trying to make the point that people concoct adversity where it doesn't exist? because i think you're doing good work on that front. keep it up.
- nitwit005 7y ago
  People regularly risk their lives and risk imprisonment for the chance to be a poor person in a wealthy country. If the daily grind is "adversity", there seem to be millions who want it desperately. And even those people are often better off than a typical human for most of history.
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watwut 7y ago
I don't think movies are good argument. Movies are not like real life, real life does not have satisfying resolution nor happy ending. Movies teach nothing about overcoming adversity, because they are not like adversity in life at all. They are about someone predestined to win to win.
- beenBoutIT 7y ago
  IRL the ending is exactly the same for everyone.
cryptica 7y ago
The adversity is real. Most people have horrible lives. People who are sedated in this so-called "safe comfortable state" are the ones who are being taken advantage of the most. It's like in The Matrix, it's not until you unplug yourself that you realize that the world is worse than it has ever been. Opportunities essentually don't exist at all. Also the argument that "if they don't realize it, then it won't hurt them" doesn't apply because it will hurt them badly in the end. Once they reach a certain age and realize that they're wasted their entire lives on video games, star wars, star treck, lord of the rings, game of thrones, etc... It will hurt badly and they won't have any way to recover.
- Medicalidiot 7y ago
  In the Developed world, we don't have to hunt our food. We don't freeze outside. We have comfortable lives in that we have are physiological needs taken care of. Yet, happiness is at an all time low and our psychological needs are neglected. I believe that OP is onto something in that humans are programmed to struggle with something, and if we don't, we start having issues. In my mind this is similar to an autoimmune disease: when our bodies don't have to fight outside pathogens, out white cells start attacking ourselves; this is one theory out there among many of why we develop autoimmune diseases.
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    When I went through my depression, I did some reading on it, and this comes up in the literature. Essentially, people who struggle to feed themselves don't get depressed. Depression is a first-world problem because we have the time and luxury for introspection and contemplation. A large part of what got me out of my depression was making meaning for my life. Discovering what really matters to me, and living my life by my discovered values. I'm also, now, easily the most optimistic person in my peer-group (I definitely was not before). I believe the world is getting better every year, and that the human race will rise to overcome all the challenges presented to us.
    - leoreeves 7y ago
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
> But your average American doesn't face real adversity anymore. As a formerly homeless person living in a neighborhood filled with poverty, I'm going to humbly disagree with you on this point.
- benj111 7y ago
  He did say 'average' American. The article is about why we're unreasonably pessimistic. You are illustrating the point.
  - pytester 7y ago
    Apparently most americans are one paycheck away from the that: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-are-one-paycheck-away-from-the-street-2015-01-07 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-are-one-pay...
    - benj111 7y ago
      But the average Americans aren't all going to lose their job at the same time and end up homeless. The average American will never experience homelessness so citing that as an example of adversity for the average American is wrong.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      That's a clickbait headline. According to the story itself, most Americans are on the verge of: "reducing spending elsewhere (26%), borrowing from family and/or friends (16%) or using credit cards (12%)."
nostrademons 7y ago
The Unabomber Manifesto talks about very similar themes. He kinda made a bad name for himself with the whole "killing people" thing, but a lot of his complaints about alienation, the "power principle" and need for struggle, and the feeling that individual freedom is being subsumed under an over-arching technocratic system echo things you might read on HN today. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unabomber/manifesto.text.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Pretty smart guy but enslaved by his own fatalism. I do think time will prove him right to a degree, but it won't be the end of civilization as often inferred. Still worth a read if you are able to separate it from the murder he committed. I wonder if the press would still release manifestos like this today. My government would not and by doing that ironically works towards what he saw as a threat.
fastbeef 7y ago
Thank you for this comment. I'm currently going through a stressful time dealing with a legal situation that's, objectively, annoying at best. Yet I'm paralyzed every time I open up my mail client to type out the next email to my lawyer, fearing to make an error. Your comment put it in a very different perspective. Thank you, I'm going to write that email now.
mensetmanusman 7y ago
You should watch ‘one punch man’ which is a satirical anime on Netflix which covers this exactly.

sonnyblarney 7y ago

I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the daily grind and all the little things, taking care of kids - without falling down (because the cost could be catastrophe) is actually 'facing adversity'.

DisruptiveDave 7y ago
Absolutely agree. I think everyone understands the relativity of perception when discussing "how hard things are" but that doesn't mean they put it into daily practice. It's very easy to get caught in your bubble.
GavinMcG 7y ago
Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve, I would argue is actual adversity.
  - krustyburger 7y ago
    If one is convinced that their lot in life is dour, there is often no specific change or improvement that would change that outlook. Objectively, almost all of us in the Western world have it very good compared with the vast majority of human beings who have lived on this planet. This is true even if we work in menial jobs or have less than glamorous lifestyles.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    >> that are never likely to improve In the United States, your effort towards this goal have an insanely high correlation with actually making it happen. Perhaps the best in any country in the world, in fact.
    - thekelvinliu 7y ago
      "the american dream"
      - HNLurker2 7y ago
        Better than Christian country with cutthroat competition (Occidental countries are better)
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Have any data to actually back it up? Such as real number of people who made an effort and failed? And how they failed, and to where? And how well they were initially off?
  - GavinMcG 7y ago
DisruptiveDave 7y ago
This point also confirms my relativity of perception thoughts. Yes, compared to me, the bottom 50% certainly has more adversity. But why stop there? The bottom 50% in America is likely the top 20% somewhere else (I'm making all of this up, of course). Then the bottom 50% of that 20% is likely the top 1% somewhere else. And on and on it goes. I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective at altering daily behavior and mindset here, but it's important to recognize nonetheless.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  "I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective " But this is what is implied by the opening statement 'The Average American' etc. etc. , no? The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. Imagine middle aged parents without spectacular health care coverage, someone gets a cavity and needs a root canal. That's $1000 - and actually beyond the 'average Americans' ability to pay for out of hand. A cavity can be little economic emergency. It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach, or no piano lessons for the kids, or worse, having to put it on the Credit Card, pay terrible rates etc.. And 'cousin Joe' was pulled over for DUI. He'll lose his job if he doesn't make bail, he needs you to co-sign for him. Now you have to make sure he shows up for court. Parents are inching older, have some income but likely need to go into a home, which will be exceedingly expensive. There are umpteen such challenges is 'most people's lives'. So I agree with the sentiment that normal, employed middle class families wherein there's stability and gainful employment, low crime etc. - yes, it's effete, and not much adversity there. There is a class of Americans for whom life doesn't have a lot of adversity, fully agree. But it's not 'most'.
  - sigstoat 7y ago
    > The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. > ... > It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach were you trying to make the point that people concoct adversity where it doesn't exist? because i think you're doing good work on that front. keep it up.
nitwit005 7y ago
People regularly risk their lives and risk imprisonment for the chance to be a poor person in a wealthy country. If the daily grind is "adversity", there seem to be millions who want it desperately. And even those people are often better off than a typical human for most of history.

deleted 7y ago

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deleted 7y ago

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watwut 7y ago

I don't think movies are good argument. Movies are not like real life, real life does not have satisfying resolution nor happy ending. Movies teach nothing about overcoming adversity, because they are not like adversity in life at all. They are about someone predestined to win to win.

beenBoutIT 7y ago
IRL the ending is exactly the same for everyone.

cryptica 7y ago

The adversity is real. Most people have horrible lives. People who are sedated in this so-called "safe comfortable state" are the ones who are being taken advantage of the most. It's like in The Matrix, it's not until you unplug yourself that you realize that the world is worse than it has ever been. Opportunities essentually don't exist at all. Also the argument that "if they don't realize it, then it won't hurt them" doesn't apply because it will hurt them badly in the end. Once they reach a certain age and realize that they're wasted their entire lives on video games, star wars, star treck, lord of the rings, game of thrones, etc... It will hurt badly and they won't have any way to recover.

Medicalidiot 7y ago
In the Developed world, we don't have to hunt our food. We don't freeze outside. We have comfortable lives in that we have are physiological needs taken care of. Yet, happiness is at an all time low and our psychological needs are neglected. I believe that OP is onto something in that humans are programmed to struggle with something, and if we don't, we start having issues. In my mind this is similar to an autoimmune disease: when our bodies don't have to fight outside pathogens, out white cells start attacking ourselves; this is one theory out there among many of why we develop autoimmune diseases.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  When I went through my depression, I did some reading on it, and this comes up in the literature. Essentially, people who struggle to feed themselves don't get depressed. Depression is a first-world problem because we have the time and luxury for introspection and contemplation. A large part of what got me out of my depression was making meaning for my life. Discovering what really matters to me, and living my life by my discovered values. I'm also, now, easily the most optimistic person in my peer-group (I definitely was not before). I believe the world is getting better every year, and that the human race will rise to overcome all the challenges presented to us.
  - leoreeves 7y ago

PopeDotNinja 7y ago

> But your average American doesn't face real adversity anymore. As a formerly homeless person living in a neighborhood filled with poverty, I'm going to humbly disagree with you on this point.

benj111 7y ago
He did say 'average' American. The article is about why we're unreasonably pessimistic. You are illustrating the point.
- pytester 7y ago
  Apparently most americans are one paycheck away from the that: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-are-one-paycheck-away-from-the-street-2015-01-07 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-are-one-pay...
  - benj111 7y ago
    But the average Americans aren't all going to lose their job at the same time and end up homeless. The average American will never experience homelessness so citing that as an example of adversity for the average American is wrong.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    That's a clickbait headline. According to the story itself, most Americans are on the verge of: "reducing spending elsewhere (26%), borrowing from family and/or friends (16%) or using credit cards (12%)."

nostrademons 7y ago

The Unabomber Manifesto talks about very similar themes. He kinda made a bad name for himself with the whole "killing people" thing, but a lot of his complaints about alienation, the "power principle" and need for struggle, and the feeling that individual freedom is being subsumed under an over-arching technocratic system echo things you might read on HN today. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unabomber/manifesto.text.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...

raxxorrax 7y ago
Pretty smart guy but enslaved by his own fatalism. I do think time will prove him right to a degree, but it won't be the end of civilization as often inferred. Still worth a read if you are able to separate it from the murder he committed. I wonder if the press would still release manifestos like this today. My government would not and by doing that ironically works towards what he saw as a threat.

fastbeef 7y ago

Thank you for this comment. I'm currently going through a stressful time dealing with a legal situation that's, objectively, annoying at best. Yet I'm paralyzed every time I open up my mail client to type out the next email to my lawyer, fearing to make an error. Your comment put it in a very different perspective. Thank you, I'm going to write that email now.

mensetmanusman 7y ago

You should watch ‘one punch man’ which is a satirical anime on Netflix which covers this exactly.