9 ms·

For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions.

For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions. That also fixes with the population issue since middle class Americans can't really afford to have kids.

vkou 7y ago
> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. As an H1B, I am paid squarely in the middle of the pay band of my co-workers that share my performance rating and ladder level. If you combine that with all the immigration-related legal expenses my employer is racking up, I cost more then the average employee, here. I ask - just because there's some shitty headshops that illegally employ H1Bs at below-market rate, don't generalize that to the entire population of visa-holders.
jogjayr 7y ago
> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire Citation needed, because this is a sweepingly broad statement. To hire an H1B you need to pay the prevailing wage, usually at least $60k, which is more than an entry-level non-STEM college grad is going to be paid outside the Bay Area (it should still be increased to something like $90-95k IMO but that's a different issue). In addition to that, there are thousands of dollars in legal fees. And of course the application has to win the lottery (which happens in April) and then be approved for the visa (which starts in October). Which means you have to wait at least 7 months after extending an offer for the employee to start.
- sdfsaf 7y ago
  Yeah, in theory. In practice H1B abuse is rife. You can look at HN's previous discussion on this.
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  It is hard to afford to raise kids in the bay area. It is not so hard to afford to raise kids somewhere else, say Salt Lake City or Syracuse, NY. This is the "comparative advantage" that Adam Smith told you about. India can export kids to the bay area, but so can other parts of the U.S.
- AimForTheBushes 7y ago
  In my anecdotal experience, the business axes a position and downgrades responsibilities to a lower title. So what a Sr. DBA did before would go to a regular DBA or even a Jr. DBA. It doesn't matter what the prevailing wage for a title is when responsibilities are loosely coupled. I think the best way to counter the abuse is to increase the premium ($100k+) and allow H1Bs to move between companies.
  - jogjayr 7y ago
    > So what a Sr. DBA did before would go to a regular DBA or even a Jr. DBA. GP was asserting that it is cheaper to hire H1Bs than entry-level grads, which isn't the same thing as what you're describing. > I think the best way to counter the abuse is to increase the premium ($100k+) and allow H1Bs to move between companies. I agree re: increasing the minimum to ~$90-100k. Maybe apply a CoL based multiplier so it's $85k in, for instance, Tulsa but $135-145k in the Bay Area. H1Bs are already allowed to move between companies. But the new company has to apply for a fresh visa, without going through the lottery, and it takes a few weeks, which is a hassle. Plus there's a risk of being denied or going into RFE. I think that rule could be tweaked to allow movement without approval if the offered salary in the new role is higher by a certain minimum percentage (like say 10% increase).
war1025 7y ago
Middle class Americans can absolutely afford to have kids. People in certain metros maybe can't afford it, but living there is often a choice they explicitly make, or at the very least talk themselves into. Sure you make half as much working somewhere else, but the cost of living is also a quarter as much.
- brightball 7y ago
  Yep. That. Every time I read something about the cost of having kids I'm looking for some idea of where these people live. The single largest expense for kids is day care and that's only necessary if you have 2 working parents...and if one of those parents income doesn't more than justify the cost of daycare it's usually a better idea to have a stay at home. People seriously take for granted the financial value that a stay at home parent brings to a home in overall cost savings. Expenses go up based on lack of time, more so than anything else. It affects your shopping, cooking, home maintenance, yard maintenance, eating out, fuel costs and long term child care costs (after school activities, day care, summer day camps, etc) that you have to worry about when you keep needing to free up time so that you can get to work. And all of those expenses are higher in densely populate areas where there's more demand for all of the "good" activities. But it often comes down to a matter of pride to have a stay at home parent.
  - nostrebored 7y ago
    Current income justifying day care is a short term and fallacious comparison. You need to look at long term potential. Leaving the labor force does more than just set you back the years you were gone.
    - war1025 7y ago
      Also really depends what you are chasing, both as an individual and a family unit. It's an optimization problem where there are more variables than income. Edit: Personally, I think the whole financial independence movement is pretty interesting, and sometimes I get myself through the day by viewing it as my wife being financially independent. Which is halfway there as far as things go.
conanbatt 7y ago
Cheaper to hire by the design of people that agree with you: if you want them to be just as pricey as an american you have to eliminate all restrictions of negotiation. You also have to eliminate all tax-benefits that americans receive that foreigners don't. And then you have to make public all wages of american citizens, to equal the information asymetry

vkou 7y ago

> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. As an H1B, I am paid squarely in the middle of the pay band of my co-workers that share my performance rating and ladder level. If you combine that with all the immigration-related legal expenses my employer is racking up, I cost more then the average employee, here. I ask - just because there's some shitty headshops that illegally employ H1Bs at below-market rate, don't generalize that to the entire population of visa-holders.

jogjayr 7y ago

> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire Citation needed, because this is a sweepingly broad statement. To hire an H1B you need to pay the prevailing wage, usually at least $60k, which is more than an entry-level non-STEM college grad is going to be paid outside the Bay Area (it should still be increased to something like $90-95k IMO but that's a different issue). In addition to that, there are thousands of dollars in legal fees. And of course the application has to win the lottery (which happens in April) and then be approved for the visa (which starts in October). Which means you have to wait at least 7 months after extending an offer for the employee to start.

sdfsaf 7y ago
Yeah, in theory. In practice H1B abuse is rife. You can look at HN's previous discussion on this.
PaulHoule 7y ago
It is hard to afford to raise kids in the bay area. It is not so hard to afford to raise kids somewhere else, say Salt Lake City or Syracuse, NY. This is the "comparative advantage" that Adam Smith told you about. India can export kids to the bay area, but so can other parts of the U.S.
AimForTheBushes 7y ago
In my anecdotal experience, the business axes a position and downgrades responsibilities to a lower title. So what a Sr. DBA did before would go to a regular DBA or even a Jr. DBA. It doesn't matter what the prevailing wage for a title is when responsibilities are loosely coupled. I think the best way to counter the abuse is to increase the premium ($100k+) and allow H1Bs to move between companies.
- jogjayr 7y ago
  > So what a Sr. DBA did before would go to a regular DBA or even a Jr. DBA. GP was asserting that it is cheaper to hire H1Bs than entry-level grads, which isn't the same thing as what you're describing. > I think the best way to counter the abuse is to increase the premium ($100k+) and allow H1Bs to move between companies. I agree re: increasing the minimum to ~$90-100k. Maybe apply a CoL based multiplier so it's $85k in, for instance, Tulsa but $135-145k in the Bay Area. H1Bs are already allowed to move between companies. But the new company has to apply for a fresh visa, without going through the lottery, and it takes a few weeks, which is a hassle. Plus there's a risk of being denied or going into RFE. I think that rule could be tweaked to allow movement without approval if the offered salary in the new role is higher by a certain minimum percentage (like say 10% increase).

war1025 7y ago

Middle class Americans can absolutely afford to have kids. People in certain metros maybe can't afford it, but living there is often a choice they explicitly make, or at the very least talk themselves into. Sure you make half as much working somewhere else, but the cost of living is also a quarter as much.

brightball 7y ago
Yep. That. Every time I read something about the cost of having kids I'm looking for some idea of where these people live. The single largest expense for kids is day care and that's only necessary if you have 2 working parents...and if one of those parents income doesn't more than justify the cost of daycare it's usually a better idea to have a stay at home. People seriously take for granted the financial value that a stay at home parent brings to a home in overall cost savings. Expenses go up based on lack of time, more so than anything else. It affects your shopping, cooking, home maintenance, yard maintenance, eating out, fuel costs and long term child care costs (after school activities, day care, summer day camps, etc) that you have to worry about when you keep needing to free up time so that you can get to work. And all of those expenses are higher in densely populate areas where there's more demand for all of the "good" activities. But it often comes down to a matter of pride to have a stay at home parent.
- nostrebored 7y ago
  Current income justifying day care is a short term and fallacious comparison. You need to look at long term potential. Leaving the labor force does more than just set you back the years you were gone.
  - war1025 7y ago
    Also really depends what you are chasing, both as an individual and a family unit. It's an optimization problem where there are more variables than income. Edit: Personally, I think the whole financial independence movement is pretty interesting, and sometimes I get myself through the day by viewing it as my wife being financially independent. Which is halfway there as far as things go.

conanbatt 7y ago

Cheaper to hire by the design of people that agree with you: if you want them to be just as pricey as an american you have to eliminate all restrictions of negotiation. You also have to eliminate all tax-benefits that americans receive that foreigners don't. And then you have to make public all wages of american citizens, to equal the information asymetry