7 ms·

Why can't a 28 American with an English major do a coding bootcamp and find an entry level job? I'm sure if he's reasonable intelligent and ambitious he can. Th

Why can't a 28 American with an English major do a coding bootcamp and find an entry level job? I'm sure if he's reasonable intelligent and ambitious he can. There aren't that many h1b's around competing with him, most American jobs aren't h1b jobs.

lemcoe9 7y ago
Why is "do a coding bootcamp" the common refrain from tech workers trying to help non-tech people?
- luckylion 7y ago
  Because it's a way into tech for non-tech people? This wasn't, as far as I understood, a general suggestion for all English majors, but for those that allegedly used to be able to simply start in tech jobs 20 years ago. Now they may need a bit of prior knowledge, which boot camps can help with.
- SuperPaintMan 7y ago
  Because tech work is magical and plentiful regardless of where you are and everyone can become a programmer /s
  - joyeuse6701 7y ago
    I do believe that if you can learn to read and write, you can learn to program.
  - downrightmike 7y ago
    The drive into getting more people to code is to increase the supply and lower pay.
- hobofan 7y ago
  Because the barrier to entry is still quite low. While maybe not "Anyone who could spell HTML could get a job" low, as said in another comment here, it's still so low that I'd wager a decently clever person with a good 3 month bootcamp can get a _entry-level_ job.
  - leakybit 7y ago
    I would say the entry level market for devs is very saturated.
    - mcguire 7y ago
      If they're making more than any other job you can get with 3-6 mos. of training, the market is not saturated.
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        That's a fallacious argument though, because at the lower end tech jobs pay more than other careers but result in you being exploited by corporations looking to drive wages down. When I graduated, there were companies offering me 30-40k a year in cities like Seattle. I have friends that could tell you the same story, some who took the opportunity because of the entry level market being saturated. Bootcamp graduates are often placed in incredibly exploitative contracting environments (often in companies that also underpay, abuse and threaten H1Bs) which are farmed out to larger companies looking to get work done cheap. Though this has just been my personal experience and that of my friends. They leverage desperation.
  - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
    There are no entry-level jobs.
  - IdiocyInAction 7y ago
    It's really become rather saturated at the entry level. It's a market for lemons situations, where there may be a lot of opening, but there's tons of unqualified candidates.
- oceanghost 7y ago
  It's the commodification of the profession.
- bdamm 7y ago
  Because the truth is that the technical work is not the barrier, but rather the grit to grind through the hundreds of little problems that you'll encounter on the way to getting a working piece of code. So "do a coding bootcamp" functions as a rapid weeding process where someone can find out quickly if they're up to the career or not. Then if they're not, they didn't waste a ton of time finding out that it doesn't work out for them, and if they are, then the bootcamp will provide further vectors to progress.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Besides "get a CS degree", what are the other alternatives? Telling people to learn how to program themselves isn't very successful; if they were the kind of person who'd do that, they'd have already done it; it's not like they were just waiting for someone to tell them to do it.
- babyslothzoo 7y ago
  I never understood this either, it's not practical advice for most people. You might as well say "become a plumber", "do electrician school", or even "go be a doctor". There are a variety of high demand and well paying jobs, but not everyone is interested in them, or even cut out for them.
- mcguire 7y ago
  Because tech workers like devaluing their skills. Because the number of openings for entry tech workers is essentially infinite. (Wait, what?) Because non-technical work is regarded as completely worthless and there is more merit in being a minimally-competent HTML-slinger.
- IdiocyInAction 7y ago
  No idea. I think it is somewhat suicidal to want to commodify your own profession.
ikeyany 7y ago
For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions. That also fixes with the population issue since middle class Americans can't really afford to have kids.
- vkou 7y ago
  > For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. As an H1B, I am paid squarely in the middle of the pay band of my co-workers that share my performance rating and ladder level. If you combine that with all the immigration-related legal expenses my employer is racking up, I cost more then the average employee, here. I ask - just because there's some shitty headshops that illegally employ H1Bs at below-market rate, don't generalize that to the entire population of visa-holders.
- jogjayr 7y ago
  > For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire Citation needed, because this is a sweepingly broad statement. To hire an H1B you need to pay the prevailing wage, usually at least $60k, which is more than an entry-level non-STEM college grad is going to be paid outside the Bay Area (it should still be increased to something like $90-95k IMO but that's a different issue). In addition to that, there are thousands of dollars in legal fees. And of course the application has to win the lottery (which happens in April) and then be approved for the visa (which starts in October). Which means you have to wait at least 7 months after extending an offer for the employee to start.
  - sdfsaf 7y ago
    Yeah, in theory. In practice H1B abuse is rife. You can look at HN's previous discussion on this.
  - PaulHoule 7y ago
    It is hard to afford to raise kids in the bay area. It is not so hard to afford to raise kids somewhere else, say Salt Lake City or Syracuse, NY. This is the "comparative advantage" that Adam Smith told you about. India can export kids to the bay area, but so can other parts of the U.S.
linuxftw 7y ago
Not many entry level jobs. Everyone is hiring experienced candidates because that's what H1B's are, experienced. Would you rather hire an entry-level domestic worker for the same salary as an experienced foreign worker?
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Not necessarily - they just need to have a degree.
misterprime 7y ago
Pretty sure saying "learn to code" will get you in trouble on Twitter. Not sure about here. Watch out, though.
- thrower123 7y ago
  Twitter is such a weird echo chamber of madness. People there will get themselves so twisted up about nonsense and just end up feeding the trolls. Unfortunately, it starts leaking out into regular society.

lemcoe9 7y ago

Why is "do a coding bootcamp" the common refrain from tech workers trying to help non-tech people?

luckylion 7y ago
Because it's a way into tech for non-tech people? This wasn't, as far as I understood, a general suggestion for all English majors, but for those that allegedly used to be able to simply start in tech jobs 20 years ago. Now they may need a bit of prior knowledge, which boot camps can help with.
SuperPaintMan 7y ago
Because tech work is magical and plentiful regardless of where you are and everyone can become a programmer /s
- joyeuse6701 7y ago
  I do believe that if you can learn to read and write, you can learn to program.
- downrightmike 7y ago
  The drive into getting more people to code is to increase the supply and lower pay.
hobofan 7y ago
Because the barrier to entry is still quite low. While maybe not "Anyone who could spell HTML could get a job" low, as said in another comment here, it's still so low that I'd wager a decently clever person with a good 3 month bootcamp can get a _entry-level_ job.
- leakybit 7y ago
  I would say the entry level market for devs is very saturated.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    If they're making more than any other job you can get with 3-6 mos. of training, the market is not saturated.
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      That's a fallacious argument though, because at the lower end tech jobs pay more than other careers but result in you being exploited by corporations looking to drive wages down. When I graduated, there were companies offering me 30-40k a year in cities like Seattle. I have friends that could tell you the same story, some who took the opportunity because of the entry level market being saturated. Bootcamp graduates are often placed in incredibly exploitative contracting environments (often in companies that also underpay, abuse and threaten H1Bs) which are farmed out to larger companies looking to get work done cheap. Though this has just been my personal experience and that of my friends. They leverage desperation.
- barbecue_sauce 7y ago
  There are no entry-level jobs.
- IdiocyInAction 7y ago
  It's really become rather saturated at the entry level. It's a market for lemons situations, where there may be a lot of opening, but there's tons of unqualified candidates.
oceanghost 7y ago
It's the commodification of the profession.
bdamm 7y ago
Because the truth is that the technical work is not the barrier, but rather the grit to grind through the hundreds of little problems that you'll encounter on the way to getting a working piece of code. So "do a coding bootcamp" functions as a rapid weeding process where someone can find out quickly if they're up to the career or not. Then if they're not, they didn't waste a ton of time finding out that it doesn't work out for them, and if they are, then the bootcamp will provide further vectors to progress.
CydeWeys 7y ago
Besides "get a CS degree", what are the other alternatives? Telling people to learn how to program themselves isn't very successful; if they were the kind of person who'd do that, they'd have already done it; it's not like they were just waiting for someone to tell them to do it.
babyslothzoo 7y ago
I never understood this either, it's not practical advice for most people. You might as well say "become a plumber", "do electrician school", or even "go be a doctor". There are a variety of high demand and well paying jobs, but not everyone is interested in them, or even cut out for them.
mcguire 7y ago
Because tech workers like devaluing their skills. Because the number of openings for entry tech workers is essentially infinite. (Wait, what?) Because non-technical work is regarded as completely worthless and there is more merit in being a minimally-competent HTML-slinger.
IdiocyInAction 7y ago
No idea. I think it is somewhat suicidal to want to commodify your own profession.

ikeyany 7y ago

For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions. That also fixes with the population issue since middle class Americans can't really afford to have kids.

vkou 7y ago
> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. As an H1B, I am paid squarely in the middle of the pay band of my co-workers that share my performance rating and ladder level. If you combine that with all the immigration-related legal expenses my employer is racking up, I cost more then the average employee, here. I ask - just because there's some shitty headshops that illegally employ H1Bs at below-market rate, don't generalize that to the entire population of visa-holders.
jogjayr 7y ago
> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire Citation needed, because this is a sweepingly broad statement. To hire an H1B you need to pay the prevailing wage, usually at least $60k, which is more than an entry-level non-STEM college grad is going to be paid outside the Bay Area (it should still be increased to something like $90-95k IMO but that's a different issue). In addition to that, there are thousands of dollars in legal fees. And of course the application has to win the lottery (which happens in April) and then be approved for the visa (which starts in October). Which means you have to wait at least 7 months after extending an offer for the employee to start.
- sdfsaf 7y ago
  Yeah, in theory. In practice H1B abuse is rife. You can look at HN's previous discussion on this.
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  It is hard to afford to raise kids in the bay area. It is not so hard to afford to raise kids somewhere else, say Salt Lake City or Syracuse, NY. This is the "comparative advantage" that Adam Smith told you about. India can export kids to the bay area, but so can other parts of the U.S.

linuxftw 7y ago

Not many entry level jobs. Everyone is hiring experienced candidates because that's what H1B's are, experienced. Would you rather hire an entry-level domestic worker for the same salary as an experienced foreign worker?

lazyasciiart 7y ago
Not necessarily - they just need to have a degree.

misterprime 7y ago

Pretty sure saying "learn to code" will get you in trouble on Twitter. Not sure about here. Watch out, though.

thrower123 7y ago
Twitter is such a weird echo chamber of madness. People there will get themselves so twisted up about nonsense and just end up feeding the trolls. Unfortunately, it starts leaking out into regular society.