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Food-Delivery Couriers Exploit Desperate Migrants in France
- _pmf_ 7y agoOutrageous! Exploitation is for businesses only; who do those wage slaves think they are?
- elcomet 7y agoThis is very sad. Regular earnings from Uber eats or similar are already way too low to live in a city like Paris, so as a sub-contractor, I cannot imagine how those people live. We are back to the 19th century and Victor Hugo novels.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoThey live similarly poor or poorer lives in the country of their origin also.
- elcomet 7y agoSo does this make it fine to let them live poorly in our countries? I don't think so, we can certainly do better.
- devoply 7y agoYes we can't have them live poorly, they must be either paid fairly or denied any money so as to leave. In other news Gig Workers create jobs for underprivileged and unemployed immigrants.
- rvense 7y agoThis is never either-or. Those jobs should come with fair pay and benefits. In whose interest is the new class of servants? As a software developer, I know I am highly prized in the current market - but this might change, and the people who are treating drivers and couriers as disposable cogs would do the same to me given half the chance. Fighting for worker's rights is self-preservation as much as it is a question of ethics.
- charliesharding 7y agoPaying them more will drive up costs. When costs go up, less people use the apps. When less people use the apps, delivery drivers get less money. Nothing exists in a bubble and it's important to look at underlying issues rather than crying foul play
- lotsofpulp 7y agoMy comment was intended to make the reader reflect on what the problem really is: That there are people living poorer quality of lives than legal Parisians within a certain distance of Paris, or that there are people living poorer quality of lives regardless of their location? The sub contractor's quality of life is too poor for you, but it's obviously better than where they came from. If the goal is to remove people living poorer quality of lives from a certain distance around people living better quality of lives, then the answer is to deport them and build barriers to entry to the country. If the goal is to stop people from living in drastically poorer quality of life conditions, then the answer is wealth redistribution.
- lelima 7y agoI think that's better than nothing, I have a friend that he lived in Milano thanks to that. Nobody wanted to hire him (cash in hand / illegal), and the only way to make anything was delivering food while he's status changed to permanent.
- elindbe2 7y agoIt's the government that is accepting these people into the country while at the same time telling them they can't legally work. They have to survive somehow.
- Scoundreller 7y agoIt’s hard to say that they were « accepting » if they arrived clandestinely. I’d rather claim that a colonizing country has the responsibility of taking care of the people it colonized if it’s going to plunder its resources, but not sure if this is the right venue for that.
- jlokier 7y agoI don't know the situation in France, but in the UK it is possible to arrive with the knowledge of government, be documented and allowed to stay, and still be disallowed from working. There are a significant number of people in this situation, and as you can imagine, it causes them great harm when it goes on for a long time, as well as hardship to their friends who provide them with support (housing, food, etc).
- benj111 7y agoWhen does that responsibility end? Should Europe still be taking care of people in the new world?
- Scoundreller 7y ago> When does that responsibility end? After it starts, of course.
- Creationer 7y agoNot according to Charles de Gaulle: "Have you seen the Muslims with their turbans and their djellabas (traditional, hooded, long wool coats)? You can see that they are not French. Try and integrate oil and vinegar. Shake the bottle. After a moment they separate again. The Arabs are Arabs, the French are French. Do you think that the French can absorb ten million Muslims who will tomorrow be twenty million and after tomorrow forty? If we carry out integration, if all the Berbers and Arabs of Algeria were regarded as French, how would one stop them coming to settle on the mainland where the standard of living is so much higher? My village would no longer be called Colombey-les-deux-Eglises [the two churches] but Colombey-the-two-mosques."
- bbsimonbb 7y agoI found out about this from the mailing list of community bicycle workshops. I have seen zero coverage in French press. I'm glad the NYT is as shocked as I was.
- baud147258 7y agoNY times won't show me the article if I'm in private mode. Do anyone know why would they do that? Edit: the site also detect Edge in non-private mode as running in private mode
- chewz 7y agoNYT recently started recognizing private mode. Wait for Chrome 76. Or jump over paywall using other means. https://www.ghacks.net/2019/06/14/chrome-76-blocks-sites-from-detecting-incognito-mode/ https://www.ghacks.net/2019/06/14/chrome-76-blocks-sites-fro...
- datenhorst 7y agoIt's so they can spot people reading more than 5 articles a month, which is their "free quota" before they hit you with the pay wall, if i recall correctly.
- baud147258 7y agoIt's 5 articles time the number of installed browsers on your computer; at least it's what I do when I hit the paywall.
- manfredo 7y agoOr just clear cookies after 5 articles.
- hadrien01 7y ago
- Scoundreller 7y agoI’ve wondered what’s going on with Uber in Paris. Almost all drivers are from Francophone Africa, and, until recently, we’re almost all driving fairly nice Peugeot 507s, as if a fleet was operating them. The car-mix seems to have changed a lot recently. Dunno why.
- abtinf 7y agoWhat a bizarre use of the word "exploit". The government is prohibiting migrants from working, to the point where their only option is "stealing or begging on the street." So of course the NYT places the blame on people who provide an alternative, rather than go after the anti-life state policy.
- hobs 7y agoReplace migrant with child. Does this hold?
- Camas 7y agoIf the other options are begging or stealing, as per the article, then yes?
- abtinf 7y agoDepending on a country’s level of development, yes. In areas where child labor is prematurely banned, children are forced into more difficult and dangerous work, especially the sex trade. In the west, effective bans on teenage labor leave gangs as the only employer. But, in this case, we are talking about adults.
- em500 7y agoIt doesn't. Children have parents or legal guardians who must provide for their livelihood. If they don't the government provides it. Such is not the case for migrants.
- Scoundreller 7y agoWouldn’t the « landlord » of the account be subject to a lot of taxes?
- jakelazaroff 7y ago> Uber Eats and competitors including Stuart, a French app, and Glovo, based in Spain, said they were aware of misconduct. “We’re concerned because these are illegal practices in which people are profiting from the vulnerability of others,” said Nicolas Breuil, global marketing manager for Stuart. They should look inward: basically the entire gig economy is people profiting from the vulnerability of others. If these companies could cut out the middle man and pay people as little as these subcontractors are being paid, they would.
- devoply 7y agoTax driver a respectable career that earned its drivers good pay until it got exploited by billionaire capitalists, I mean disrupted.
- cyrksoft 7y agoCare to elaborate a bit more? Where’s the exploitation? Edit: typo
- sandworm101 7y agoTaxi drivers were once largely independent operators, or they worked as employees of taxi companies. In recent decades this was "disrupted". Drivers became contractors who rented their cars and licenses (medallions) from wealthy investors. That's how NYC medallions started being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now a taxi driver neither enjoys the freedoms of being independent nor the security of being an employee. They live the worst of both thanks to the disruption of the industry.
- dantheman 7y agoTaxi drivers also provided a terrible experience, had dirty cabs, refused to pick up people, would lie about the fare, take the long way, etc. Uber and the other apps took a one time anonymous transaction where the cab driver didn't care about repeat business and made it accountable. Much like yelp/trip advisor hurting business for tourist trap restaurants. It aligns the incentives.
- baud147258 7y agoRegarding the use of illegal migrants in sub-contracting work, their numbers in the construction bussiness is orders of magnitude higher than in the gig-courrier industry. They are usually employed by contractor / sub-contractor, making any kind of control complicated; even then most people are taking advantage of this so there's little incentives to change. The use of illegal workers in construction is apparently driven by a race to the bottom in the construction price, all the while prices are going up, especially in and around Paris, the difference being pocketed by land owners/promoters. Regarding the deliveries services, I've never used them, but they are imposing externalities on everyone with their motor scooters parked in front of busy fast-food places and drivers (not all of them, though) with little regard to the traffic code (though it's in part caused by the incentives to deliver as quickly as possible).
- charlchi 7y agoInternational workers labor away for the profits of international capital. People wonder why nationalism is rising...
- lotsofpulp 7y agoInternational labor is taking advantage of the arbitrage that exists due to wealth inequalities between different parts of the world. Without the use of force (or natural borders via land, lack of information, or language), wealth will flow from societies that have it to those that don't, because the labor will be cheaper. Same situation as having a new store open in town selling the same items for cheaper. Buyers will flock to it and the original store will have to lower prices or offer a different product. Or put up new barriers to entry (immigration, etc).
- bluedino 7y agoThe restaurant business itself is one of the largest users of illegal/migrant labor.
- sandworm101 7y ago>>Uber Eats and competitors including Stuart, a French app, and Glovo, based in Spain, said they were aware of misconduct. “We’re concerned because these are illegal practices in which people are profiting from the vulnerability of others,” said Nicolas Breuil, global marketing manager for Stuart. Pot. Kettle. Black. Uber et al have for years argued that driver/riders are not employees. If they aren't employees then they are contractors. One of the basic definitions of contractors is that they may subcontract. To call subcontracting "illegal" is a stretch. It may be a violation of a clause in the contract, but it isn't a crime. Use of illegal labourers is a crime, but the simple act of having someone other than the original contractor deliver the food isn't. If Uber wants to deal with a particular person and ensure that only that person handles the actual labor, Uber is free to HIRE that person.
- Kurtz79 7y ago"Use of illegal labourers is a crime, but the simple act of having someone other than the original contractor deliver the food isn't." Yes, and the issue is using illegal labourers, not the subcontracting itself.
- IloveHN84 7y agoIt should also be made illegal to pay so few fares to couriers. It's under the level of acceptance
- iraldir 7y agoI believe the (official) problem here is that the subcontracted workers can't be employed because they are underage, illegal immigrants etc.
- sandworm101 7y agoAs I said, using illegal labourers is a crime. But "profiting from the vulnerability of others" is the basis of Uber's business model. It's laughable to hear them complain about someone else sidestepping labour standards to pay people less than a minimum. I think they are just upset that someone has managed to shave profit from their system. Uber is jealous that it cannot access this ultra-cheap labour pool itself.
- potatofarmer45 7y agoIt's an extension what already happens in industries such as construction. If you want to remodel your home in Florida, you'd hire a local contractor who then subcontracts people who are almost certainly illegal immigrants from Mexico to do the actual work at a much lower rate than if they hired Americans. The reality though is that it's not really exploitation because these often illegal workers don't really have any other options. Anyone who has been to Paris will tell how expensive it is. Ideally the arbitrage between the legal contractor and the illegal sub-contractor is as small as possible but until they have better options, to them this is better than nothing.
- jakelazaroff 7y agoUsing someone else's limitations (e.g. inability to work legally) as leverage for your own gain (e.g. paying them an extremely low wage) might as well be the textbook definition of exploitation.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoThe dynamic you've described is no different than a licensed professional hiring unlicensed worker to work under them. The employer has some legal status that is required by the government to do that business and to make the most money off of it they have more people doing under their license. Sure they technically bear responsibility for the work but 99.9999% of the jobs won't require the full skills of a license holder so sending an apprentice to wire a ceiling fan or un-clog a drain is no big deal. Sure, I guess the plumber's apprentice could just get a job bagging groceries but the illegal immigrant could panhandle or collect cans. At some point it just becomes an exercise drawing arbitrary lines with regard to how much money one needs to survive. Personally I think the government should get out of the business of saying who can work or who can do what work since that's what's creating the opportunity for this labor arbitrage/exploitation.
- jakelazaroff 7y ago> The dynamic you've described is no different than a licensed professional hiring unlicensed worker to work under them. The key here is the second part, where that limitation is being used to coerce them into accepting disadvantageous terms. > Sure, I guess the plumber's apprentice could just not work but so could the illegal immigrant at some point it just becomes an exercise drawing arbitrary lines with regard to how much money one needs to survive. Perhaps we could implement some sort of "minimum wage" to ensure employers pay enough for their employees to survive.
- rb808 7y agoIsn't this just normal in the US? I'd expect 3/4 of the delivery guys in NYC to be illegal too.
- La-ang 7y ago"The fact that there is less money from the platforms has pushed poor people to outsource to people even poorer than them,” said Jean-Daniel Zamor, a courier organizer in Paris". It's welfare, not exploitation. But on the dark side, those who exploit are less guilty than the giant gluttony-firms that have no end to their greed.
- umeshunni 7y ago_Illegal_ migrants, to be clear.
- ingenieros 7y agoSame thing is happening in Mexico, Colombia, Perú and Argentina with YC backed Rappi. The fact that most of their recruits happen to be desperate Venezuelans fleeing their country makes this practice all the more glaring.