11 ms·

Argentina is world’s eighth largest country. I find it mind blowing that you can have a power outage that covers the whole country (+ some more).

lugg 7y ago
USA isn't in much of a better position. Large scale transformer blowouts are a nightmare scenario due to how long they take to replace / repair.
- cronix 7y ago
  Even worse when a generator goes out (or is destroyed). It can take months to get a new one. Hope we don't have multiple generators go out at once. They're not just sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be picked up.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    how much redundant capacity does the grid have ?
    - 6thaccount2 7y ago
      It depends on what time of the year it is. During Winter Peak on the East Coast (ISO-NE/PJM/NYISO) or Summer Peak in the ERCOT/SPP regions, you might not have a huge amount of reserves left. The shoulder months would be much nicer, but that is when many generators go on outage for repairs, so you have other problems. One of the biggest issues is that traditional resources (coal, nuclear, gas) can run for long periods of time and in many places have a pretty reliable fuel supply. Renewables are great, but you could be generating lots of power one minute and then it's all gone the next hour. This causes a lot of stress on traditional resources which need to be ready to counteract this. Coal plants and gas plants were never designed for that either and it's causing issues.
  - powerbroker 7y ago
    This is the nightmare scenario that we would have if a Carrington-class solar flare hit the earth. Many transformers would be blown out by the induced electricity in power lines. The attached article describes economic losses in the trillions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_2012
    - woodgrainz 7y ago
      Additional reading on the Carrington event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
- ics 7y ago
  I work on one of the densest power grids in the world (NYC) on the team which does emergency transformer replacements and can possibly answer questions about this. From failure to in service for a single transformer in Manhattan is down to 2-3 weeks. That includes design and engineering (my part), permitting, and construction. For fast transformer replacements we rely on two paths, either system spares (identical units, sometimes refurbished or like in kind replacements) and more recently mobile resiliency transformers. Resiliency transformers are trucked in on semis and can operate at 69, 138, or 345KV in our case. (There's some lightweight reading on them here: https://www.tdworld.com/overhead-transmission/siemens-introduces-demand-mobile-resilience-transformer-leasing https://www.tdworld.com/overhead-transmission/siemens-introd...)
  - MisterTea 7y ago
    Neat job. I've always wanted to poke my head into ConEd's system and see the whole thing from behind the scenes. Years back I remember ConEd was replacing two or three very large transformers down the street of a large venu I was working an event. Turns out we worked the same event the next year and amazing the same day ConEd again had the second transformer scheduled to moved into place. What an operation. Huge trailer from Bay Crane along with one of their giant hydraulic cranes. Was told the transformer weighed in at 240,000 pounds.
    - ics 7y ago
      Heh, our most recent replacement a few weeks ago came in at almost 900,000lbs with oil. Depending on the speed of the replacement you can't always move the transformer dry because you need a certain amount of time between filling it and putting it in service.
      - jacobush 7y ago
        Air bubbles need to rise first?
      - MisterTea 7y ago
        That sounds like quite the transformer. That must have been at one of the big 345kV subs. And I assume shipping filled is to avoid the time needed to remove air bubbles. I know a few people in the ConEd trenches, one guy is a lineman who does all the >=69kV stuff and the other guy worked in substations and was in mott haven last I spoke to him (cushy job). I'm always amazed how much new tech con ed has installed and how much old stuff is still kicking around. I live in south queens and we're all 4kV overhead fed from area subs in turn fed by 27kV. Some of those 4kV poles have westinghouse transformers from the 30/40's still in service, glass insulators, and leftover wooden pins from older insulators. Some are so old the primaries have fallen off and just hang between two adjacent poles, some the crossarms are half falling off. Amazing this grid doesn't go down more. Then the next pole is brand new, composite strain insulators, cutouts, reclosers, metering, etc. All modern hardware. And I know some areas they upgraded the 4kV overhead to 27kV. The secondaries are in even worse condition, ancient cloth insulation half weatherd/baked off. But it all still works. I really love how there's this massive network of cabling and systems which orchestrate the flow of power from multiple synchronized generators so it can get to your humble wall socket and charge a phone or turn a light bulb on.
hfkajshfaks 7y ago
It isn't really though. A cascading failure can knock out an entire grid. The Northeast blackout is an example. A line goes out. while (there some lines are still live): The current redistributes itself among neighboring lines. Neighboring lines trip end BlackStart() BlackStart() is fun. Having your plants and grid down is like having a dead battery (plants use ~30% of the electricity they gen on themselves) and no one to give you a jump. Usually the hydroelectric plants are started first. Arg. is lucky, they have a lot of those. Otherwise you need to fire up diesel generators (which hopefully have been maintained). You give power to the grid first so you can start another plant. Then you feed hospitals and continue firing the thermal plants. Throughout all of this you have to keep phase stability (no grid, no phase reference). I'd assume this would limit renewable's use-fullness for re-start (a thousand 5Mw turbines out of phase are best left idling) As a last step you turn on your nuclear plants (Arg. has a few). These are last because of nuclear poisons that accumulate from decaying wastes that weren't burned while the reactor was off. It's a bloody hard problem.
- mjevans 7y ago
  The renewables depends on how they're connected to the grid. If they're DC charging a battery bank then presumably said bank can be treated as a single source so they'd be useful. Though it might be more efficient if they were also able to synchronize and direct-connect to the grid as AC.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  How is grid phase synchronised?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    https://hackaday.com/2017/07/05/how-do-they-synchronize-power-stations-with-the-grid/ https://hackaday.com/2017/07/05/how-do-they-synchronize-powe... Phase is monitored on both sides of the connection, and high voltage contactors complete the circuit when tolerances are met.
    - 7y ago
sergiomattei 7y ago
Puerto Rico was without power for months after Hurricane Maria.
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  They had massive physical damage from a powerful hurricane, their grid didn't just fail. Transmission lines and substations had to be repaired. That is ignoring issues like Whitefish Energy among other things. Very different situation. edit: yes, we know that nothing anywhere near comparable to hurricane Maria hit them.
  - da_chicken 7y ago
    Do we know that there's been no grid damage in Argentina? It is the middle of winter.
    - cryptonector 7y ago
      Most of the population and the grid are in temperate weather zones that get little wintry weather.
    - wickerman 7y ago
      Most of the country has a very warm winter (yesterday I spoke to my mam and she said it was 16 C). There's been grid problems since I have memory. Doesn't surprise me that the whole thing eventually went down.
- pryelluw 7y ago
  Not that the PR grid was a an example of reliability before the hurricane. I had to endure hours and sometimes days with no power rather consistently. Maria wasnt the only hurricane that left us in the dark. George and Hortense were a 2 month ordeal with no power (aside from small gasoline generators) in the town I grew up.
- imjustsaying 7y ago
  parts, not the whole island. correct me if im wrong

lugg 7y ago

USA isn't in much of a better position. Large scale transformer blowouts are a nightmare scenario due to how long they take to replace / repair.

cronix 7y ago
Even worse when a generator goes out (or is destroyed). It can take months to get a new one. Hope we don't have multiple generators go out at once. They're not just sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be picked up.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  how much redundant capacity does the grid have ?
  - 6thaccount2 7y ago
    It depends on what time of the year it is. During Winter Peak on the East Coast (ISO-NE/PJM/NYISO) or Summer Peak in the ERCOT/SPP regions, you might not have a huge amount of reserves left. The shoulder months would be much nicer, but that is when many generators go on outage for repairs, so you have other problems. One of the biggest issues is that traditional resources (coal, nuclear, gas) can run for long periods of time and in many places have a pretty reliable fuel supply. Renewables are great, but you could be generating lots of power one minute and then it's all gone the next hour. This causes a lot of stress on traditional resources which need to be ready to counteract this. Coal plants and gas plants were never designed for that either and it's causing issues.
- powerbroker 7y ago
  This is the nightmare scenario that we would have if a Carrington-class solar flare hit the earth. Many transformers would be blown out by the induced electricity in power lines. The attached article describes economic losses in the trillions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_2012
  - woodgrainz 7y ago
    Additional reading on the Carrington event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
ics 7y ago
I work on one of the densest power grids in the world (NYC) on the team which does emergency transformer replacements and can possibly answer questions about this. From failure to in service for a single transformer in Manhattan is down to 2-3 weeks. That includes design and engineering (my part), permitting, and construction. For fast transformer replacements we rely on two paths, either system spares (identical units, sometimes refurbished or like in kind replacements) and more recently mobile resiliency transformers. Resiliency transformers are trucked in on semis and can operate at 69, 138, or 345KV in our case. (There's some lightweight reading on them here: https://www.tdworld.com/overhead-transmission/siemens-introduces-demand-mobile-resilience-transformer-leasing https://www.tdworld.com/overhead-transmission/siemens-introd...)
- MisterTea 7y ago
  Neat job. I've always wanted to poke my head into ConEd's system and see the whole thing from behind the scenes. Years back I remember ConEd was replacing two or three very large transformers down the street of a large venu I was working an event. Turns out we worked the same event the next year and amazing the same day ConEd again had the second transformer scheduled to moved into place. What an operation. Huge trailer from Bay Crane along with one of their giant hydraulic cranes. Was told the transformer weighed in at 240,000 pounds.
  - ics 7y ago
    Heh, our most recent replacement a few weeks ago came in at almost 900,000lbs with oil. Depending on the speed of the replacement you can't always move the transformer dry because you need a certain amount of time between filling it and putting it in service.
    - jacobush 7y ago
      Air bubbles need to rise first?
    - MisterTea 7y ago
      That sounds like quite the transformer. That must have been at one of the big 345kV subs. And I assume shipping filled is to avoid the time needed to remove air bubbles. I know a few people in the ConEd trenches, one guy is a lineman who does all the >=69kV stuff and the other guy worked in substations and was in mott haven last I spoke to him (cushy job). I'm always amazed how much new tech con ed has installed and how much old stuff is still kicking around. I live in south queens and we're all 4kV overhead fed from area subs in turn fed by 27kV. Some of those 4kV poles have westinghouse transformers from the 30/40's still in service, glass insulators, and leftover wooden pins from older insulators. Some are so old the primaries have fallen off and just hang between two adjacent poles, some the crossarms are half falling off. Amazing this grid doesn't go down more. Then the next pole is brand new, composite strain insulators, cutouts, reclosers, metering, etc. All modern hardware. And I know some areas they upgraded the 4kV overhead to 27kV. The secondaries are in even worse condition, ancient cloth insulation half weatherd/baked off. But it all still works. I really love how there's this massive network of cabling and systems which orchestrate the flow of power from multiple synchronized generators so it can get to your humble wall socket and charge a phone or turn a light bulb on.

hfkajshfaks 7y ago

It isn't really though. A cascading failure can knock out an entire grid. The Northeast blackout is an example. A line goes out. while (there some lines are still live): The current redistributes itself among neighboring lines. Neighboring lines trip end BlackStart() BlackStart() is fun. Having your plants and grid down is like having a dead battery (plants use ~30% of the electricity they gen on themselves) and no one to give you a jump. Usually the hydroelectric plants are started first. Arg. is lucky, they have a lot of those. Otherwise you need to fire up diesel generators (which hopefully have been maintained). You give power to the grid first so you can start another plant. Then you feed hospitals and continue firing the thermal plants. Throughout all of this you have to keep phase stability (no grid, no phase reference). I'd assume this would limit renewable's use-fullness for re-start (a thousand 5Mw turbines out of phase are best left idling) As a last step you turn on your nuclear plants (Arg. has a few). These are last because of nuclear poisons that accumulate from decaying wastes that weren't burned while the reactor was off. It's a bloody hard problem.

mjevans 7y ago
The renewables depends on how they're connected to the grid. If they're DC charging a battery bank then presumably said bank can be treated as a single source so they'd be useful. Though it might be more efficient if they were also able to synchronize and direct-connect to the grid as AC.
lostlogin 7y ago
How is grid phase synchronised?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  https://hackaday.com/2017/07/05/how-do-they-synchronize-power-stations-with-the-grid/ https://hackaday.com/2017/07/05/how-do-they-synchronize-powe... Phase is monitored on both sides of the connection, and high voltage contactors complete the circuit when tolerances are met.
  - 7y ago

sergiomattei 7y ago

Puerto Rico was without power for months after Hurricane Maria.

throwaway5752 7y ago
They had massive physical damage from a powerful hurricane, their grid didn't just fail. Transmission lines and substations had to be repaired. That is ignoring issues like Whitefish Energy among other things. Very different situation. edit: yes, we know that nothing anywhere near comparable to hurricane Maria hit them.
- da_chicken 7y ago
  Do we know that there's been no grid damage in Argentina? It is the middle of winter.
  - cryptonector 7y ago
    Most of the population and the grid are in temperate weather zones that get little wintry weather.
  - wickerman 7y ago
    Most of the country has a very warm winter (yesterday I spoke to my mam and she said it was 16 C). There's been grid problems since I have memory. Doesn't surprise me that the whole thing eventually went down.
pryelluw 7y ago
Not that the PR grid was a an example of reliability before the hurricane. I had to endure hours and sometimes days with no power rather consistently. Maria wasnt the only hurricane that left us in the dark. George and Hortense were a 2 month ordeal with no power (aside from small gasoline generators) in the town I grew up.
imjustsaying 7y ago
parts, not the whole island. correct me if im wrong