7 ms·

The Truth About Tonkin (2008)

67 points by stareatgoats 7y ago

jonny_eh 7y ago
This is a very long article. Can someone summarize?
- hurrdurr2 7y ago
  Basically declassified evidence points to Sec of Defense at the time intentionally lying to Congress to get the US involved in Vietnam regarding Gulf of Tonkin attack.
- radar_ghosts 7y ago
  In 1964, the White House and Defense Department lied and misrepresented a supposed act of naval aggression in order to fraudulently justify launching a war they sought for other reasons. Its relevance to the present day is left as an exercise for the reader.
- dsr_ 7y ago
  The United States government decided that they wanted to escalate the war in Vietnam. For public relations reasons, they manufactured an incident and used it as an excuse. Somewhere between 1.5 million and 3.5 million people died. The United States got Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian restaurants, and also 60,000 dead soldiers and 300,000 wounded soldiers.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    'Tis an ill wind, and all that.
hurrdurr2 7y ago
Somewhat related is this latest supposed attack by Iranians on the two Japanese tankers... now one of the Japanese tanker owners is saying it was a projectile while US Centcom says it's limpet mines.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  We definitely don't want to get into another situation like after 9/11 when some people did everything they could to connect Iraq to 9/11 so they could invade. Not sure if there are people right now who are hellbent to go to war Iran. I hope not.
  - brians 7y ago
    The national security advisor and the Secretary of State.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      Pompeo seems pretty sane to me. Bolton is another question. very true.
      - danharaj 7y ago
        > Pompeo seems pretty sane to me. So did Colin Powell.
        maxxxxx 7y ago
        My impression was that Powell let himself being bullied into it. Which is not good either.
      - aaronbrethorst 7y ago
        Pompeo believes in dispensational premillennialism. Which is to say that he thinks the world will end in literal Armageddon when the Antichrist comes to earth and the forces of Heaven and Hell do battle on the plains of Megiddo in Israel. Of course, Pompeo will have been swept up in the Rapture, so he'll be a-ok. And yes, it sounds utterly insane to me too. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/26/americas-islamophobia-is-forged-in-the-pulpit/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/26/americas-islamophobia-i... For more background on dispensational premillennialism, check out https://crooked.com/podcast/karma-magnificent-btch-w-diana-butler-bass-rick-wilson/ https://crooked.com/podcast/karma-magnificent-btch-w-diana-b...
simlevesque 7y ago
I learned this year that the commander of the U.S. naval forces in the Gulf of Tonkin during the Gulf of Tonkin Incident is The Doors' Jim Morrisson' father. Small world.
freewilly1040 7y ago
For a great book on the military decision making at the time, I’d recommend Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers by Daniel Ellsberg
lordnacho 7y ago
I can't help but be sceptical about the suggestion that Iran attacked the oil tanker. They're trying to be friends with Japan, but they attack a Japanese vessel while the PM of Japan is actually visiting? Really? They aren't a superpower, and the US has bases all the way around Iran. Maybe I'm a strategic simpleton whose entire diplomatic experience is playing Civ, but it just doesn't seem smart. Plus you have to wonder about the evidence for the Iraq war. That seemed pretty flimsy too. And it involved some of the same senior staff. If international diplomacy were a reality TV show, it would make sense though.
- codr7 7y ago
  The reason it doesn't make any sense is that its all a bunch of lies and excuses to start a war, its not like the US hasn't been barking up this tree for quite a while now. And there were no weapons of mass destruction, all lies. It's public information but you'll have to search for it yourself because it will never be reported in the mainstream media, people might start asking the wrong questions.
  - hurrdurr2 7y ago
    The US going to war with Iran is John Bolton's wet dream.
    - codr7 7y ago
      John Bolton should do the world a favor and strap himself onto one of Musk's rockets if you ask me, I wouldn't mind if it explodes either just to make sure. This imperialist crap is getting soo old, we're all in the same stupid canoe and its about time we started acting like it.
      - SantalBlush 7y ago
        My hope is that ordinary citizens across the globe will become more connected via the internet, and as a result, will develop a strong distaste for war in general.
codr7 7y ago
Straight from Wikipedia: "In his book, Body of Secrets, James Bamford, who spent three years in the United States Navy as an intelligence analyst, writes, that the primary purpose of the Maddox "was to act as a seagoing provocateur—to poke its sharp gray bow and the American flag as close to the belly of North Vietnam as possible, in effect shoving its five-inch cannons up the nose of the communist navy. ... The Maddox' mission was made even more provocative by being timed to coincide with commando raids, creating the impression that the Maddox was directing those missions ..." Thus, the North Vietnamese had every reason to believe that Maddox was involved in these actions." The US was already neck deep in Vietnam, what they needed was an excuse for going all in. So they started poking the bear, which is exactly what they're doing right now with Russia, Iran, China and probably more. Wars are not started by coincidence, they are very well planned and always come with a hidden agenda.
- lsd5you 7y ago
  It feels like something the (non-corrupt) left and right should be able to agree on. Plenty of people on the right seem disappointed that Trump seems to have lost his pre-government isolationist tendancies. I suppose the only hope is this time around it's a 'trumpian' ploy. i.e. War or give us what we want, with the emphasis on getting some deal. Not that that is ok. The impression very much is that the deal may be in fact that he may get is give the 'deep state' a war and then he gets some media support and a chance at a second term.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    "War or give us what we want," I always wonder what he really wants from them (Total surrender is probably not going to happen and he rejects the nuclear treaty so what's the endgame?). I also don't understand how nice he is to North Korea in comparison to Iran. North Korea's government is probably the most brutal government on the planet right now and makes Iran almost look nice.
    - wahern 7y ago
      > I also don't understand how nice he is to North Korea in comparison to Iran. North Korea's government is probably the most brutal government on the planet right now and makes Iran almost look nice. Because North Korea says nice things about him in public. He literally made it clear that all he wants with Iran is that he make a deal. He wants the photo ops, he wants the opportunity to look good. A not insignificant number of Trump's base already believe he "solved" the North Korea issue, and that's what he wants with Iran. Personally I seriously doubt that Trump will initiate a full-on war with Iran. I said it in 2016 after the election and I'll say it now: Trump has a preternatural instinct for survival and spinning narratives, and wars are invariably lose-lose for everybody involved. He's not stupid enough to believe Iran could possibly turn out any better than Iraq. He may drop a few bombs to punish the IRGC for making him look bad, but then he'll find an opportune time to claim victory and move on or otherwise shift attention. Iran's regime is safe just like North Korea's is safe.
davidw 7y ago
Wish there were more men like Wayne Morse in power.
tedunangst 7y ago
But what about the Maine?
- mcguire 7y ago
  I don't remember that.
apo 7y ago
This event led to the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, which granted the president sweeping military powers in southeast Asia. It amounted to a declaration of war on North Vietnam It passed the senate with flying colors; only two votes against: > The Senate conferred its approval by a vote of 88–2. Some members expressed misgivings about the measure, but in the end, Democratic Senators Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska cast the only nay votes.[12] At the time, Senator Morse warned that "I believe this resolution to be a historic mistake." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution When the US starts wars, it's always with massive popular support - at least in the beginning. It's easy to forget just what a boogeyman decades of propaganda had turned communism into by the 1960s. A similar thing has happened with "radical islam" today. There's currently a nascent movement to do the same thing to China. When the next big war comes, expect it to be met with wild applause regardless of how asinine the justification is.
teilo 7y ago
My father, a yeoman in the Navy at the time, has been telling me this for years. But try to make that point 20 years ago, and you would be labeled a conspiracy nut.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  In 1971, 60 Minutes, the most watched TV show in the country won an Emmy for it's story on "What Really Happened at Tonkin Gulf?". The truth was out pretty early, and well accepted.
byron_fast 7y ago
Read the point of view of a fighter pilot who was there: https://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-Philosophical-Fighter-Pilot-Reprint/dp/0817993924 https://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-Philosophical-Fighter-Pilot-...

67 points by stareatgoats 7y ago

jonny_eh 7y ago

This is a very long article. Can someone summarize?

hurrdurr2 7y ago
Basically declassified evidence points to Sec of Defense at the time intentionally lying to Congress to get the US involved in Vietnam regarding Gulf of Tonkin attack.
radar_ghosts 7y ago
In 1964, the White House and Defense Department lied and misrepresented a supposed act of naval aggression in order to fraudulently justify launching a war they sought for other reasons. Its relevance to the present day is left as an exercise for the reader.
dsr_ 7y ago
The United States government decided that they wanted to escalate the war in Vietnam. For public relations reasons, they manufactured an incident and used it as an excuse. Somewhere between 1.5 million and 3.5 million people died. The United States got Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian restaurants, and also 60,000 dead soldiers and 300,000 wounded soldiers.
- mcguire 7y ago
  'Tis an ill wind, and all that.

hurrdurr2 7y ago

Somewhat related is this latest supposed attack by Iranians on the two Japanese tankers... now one of the Japanese tanker owners is saying it was a projectile while US Centcom says it's limpet mines.

maxxxxx 7y ago
We definitely don't want to get into another situation like after 9/11 when some people did everything they could to connect Iraq to 9/11 so they could invade. Not sure if there are people right now who are hellbent to go to war Iran. I hope not.
- brians 7y ago
  The national security advisor and the Secretary of State.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    Pompeo seems pretty sane to me. Bolton is another question. very true.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      > Pompeo seems pretty sane to me. So did Colin Powell.
      - maxxxxx 7y ago
        My impression was that Powell let himself being bullied into it. Which is not good either.
    - aaronbrethorst 7y ago
      Pompeo believes in dispensational premillennialism. Which is to say that he thinks the world will end in literal Armageddon when the Antichrist comes to earth and the forces of Heaven and Hell do battle on the plains of Megiddo in Israel. Of course, Pompeo will have been swept up in the Rapture, so he'll be a-ok. And yes, it sounds utterly insane to me too. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/26/americas-islamophobia-is-forged-in-the-pulpit/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/26/americas-islamophobia-i... For more background on dispensational premillennialism, check out https://crooked.com/podcast/karma-magnificent-btch-w-diana-butler-bass-rick-wilson/ https://crooked.com/podcast/karma-magnificent-btch-w-diana-b...

simlevesque 7y ago

I learned this year that the commander of the U.S. naval forces in the Gulf of Tonkin during the Gulf of Tonkin Incident is The Doors' Jim Morrisson' father. Small world.

freewilly1040 7y ago

For a great book on the military decision making at the time, I’d recommend Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers by Daniel Ellsberg

lordnacho 7y ago

I can't help but be sceptical about the suggestion that Iran attacked the oil tanker. They're trying to be friends with Japan, but they attack a Japanese vessel while the PM of Japan is actually visiting? Really? They aren't a superpower, and the US has bases all the way around Iran. Maybe I'm a strategic simpleton whose entire diplomatic experience is playing Civ, but it just doesn't seem smart. Plus you have to wonder about the evidence for the Iraq war. That seemed pretty flimsy too. And it involved some of the same senior staff. If international diplomacy were a reality TV show, it would make sense though.

codr7 7y ago
The reason it doesn't make any sense is that its all a bunch of lies and excuses to start a war, its not like the US hasn't been barking up this tree for quite a while now. And there were no weapons of mass destruction, all lies. It's public information but you'll have to search for it yourself because it will never be reported in the mainstream media, people might start asking the wrong questions.
- hurrdurr2 7y ago
  The US going to war with Iran is John Bolton's wet dream.
  - codr7 7y ago
    John Bolton should do the world a favor and strap himself onto one of Musk's rockets if you ask me, I wouldn't mind if it explodes either just to make sure. This imperialist crap is getting soo old, we're all in the same stupid canoe and its about time we started acting like it.
    - SantalBlush 7y ago
      My hope is that ordinary citizens across the globe will become more connected via the internet, and as a result, will develop a strong distaste for war in general.

codr7 7y ago

Straight from Wikipedia: "In his book, Body of Secrets, James Bamford, who spent three years in the United States Navy as an intelligence analyst, writes, that the primary purpose of the Maddox "was to act as a seagoing provocateur—to poke its sharp gray bow and the American flag as close to the belly of North Vietnam as possible, in effect shoving its five-inch cannons up the nose of the communist navy. ... The Maddox' mission was made even more provocative by being timed to coincide with commando raids, creating the impression that the Maddox was directing those missions ..." Thus, the North Vietnamese had every reason to believe that Maddox was involved in these actions." The US was already neck deep in Vietnam, what they needed was an excuse for going all in. So they started poking the bear, which is exactly what they're doing right now with Russia, Iran, China and probably more. Wars are not started by coincidence, they are very well planned and always come with a hidden agenda.

lsd5you 7y ago
It feels like something the (non-corrupt) left and right should be able to agree on. Plenty of people on the right seem disappointed that Trump seems to have lost his pre-government isolationist tendancies. I suppose the only hope is this time around it's a 'trumpian' ploy. i.e. War or give us what we want, with the emphasis on getting some deal. Not that that is ok. The impression very much is that the deal may be in fact that he may get is give the 'deep state' a war and then he gets some media support and a chance at a second term.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  "War or give us what we want," I always wonder what he really wants from them (Total surrender is probably not going to happen and he rejects the nuclear treaty so what's the endgame?). I also don't understand how nice he is to North Korea in comparison to Iran. North Korea's government is probably the most brutal government on the planet right now and makes Iran almost look nice.
  - wahern 7y ago
    > I also don't understand how nice he is to North Korea in comparison to Iran. North Korea's government is probably the most brutal government on the planet right now and makes Iran almost look nice. Because North Korea says nice things about him in public. He literally made it clear that all he wants with Iran is that he make a deal. He wants the photo ops, he wants the opportunity to look good. A not insignificant number of Trump's base already believe he "solved" the North Korea issue, and that's what he wants with Iran. Personally I seriously doubt that Trump will initiate a full-on war with Iran. I said it in 2016 after the election and I'll say it now: Trump has a preternatural instinct for survival and spinning narratives, and wars are invariably lose-lose for everybody involved. He's not stupid enough to believe Iran could possibly turn out any better than Iraq. He may drop a few bombs to punish the IRGC for making him look bad, but then he'll find an opportune time to claim victory and move on or otherwise shift attention. Iran's regime is safe just like North Korea's is safe.

davidw 7y ago

Wish there were more men like Wayne Morse in power.

tedunangst 7y ago

But what about the Maine?

mcguire 7y ago
I don't remember that.

apo 7y ago

This event led to the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, which granted the president sweeping military powers in southeast Asia. It amounted to a declaration of war on North Vietnam It passed the senate with flying colors; only two votes against: > The Senate conferred its approval by a vote of 88–2. Some members expressed misgivings about the measure, but in the end, Democratic Senators Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska cast the only nay votes.[12] At the time, Senator Morse warned that "I believe this resolution to be a historic mistake." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution When the US starts wars, it's always with massive popular support - at least in the beginning. It's easy to forget just what a boogeyman decades of propaganda had turned communism into by the 1960s. A similar thing has happened with "radical islam" today. There's currently a nascent movement to do the same thing to China. When the next big war comes, expect it to be met with wild applause regardless of how asinine the justification is.

teilo 7y ago

My father, a yeoman in the Navy at the time, has been telling me this for years. But try to make that point 20 years ago, and you would be labeled a conspiracy nut.

WillPostForFood 7y ago
In 1971, 60 Minutes, the most watched TV show in the country won an Emmy for it's story on "What Really Happened at Tonkin Gulf?". The truth was out pretty early, and well accepted.

byron_fast 7y ago

Read the point of view of a fighter pilot who was there: https://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-Philosophical-Fighter-Pilot-Reprint/dp/0817993924 https://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-Philosophical-Fighter-Pilot-...